University Open Days- what do you expect staff to wear?

[PoisonedIvy]

Completely random question prompted by a discussion with a colleague.

I've just taken over the running of my department's open days. I'm leading one this Saturday.

Do you expect/want the academics leading open days to be dressed smart? I normally dress very casual for work and was planning to wear the same type of thing as usual for the open day (jeans, leather jacket, top, boots). But my colleague who ran open days where she used to work was of the opinion that staff should dress up a bit smart.

So, what do you think?

[housess]

25k?!? How??

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

What do you mean?

[housess]

I mean how on earth are you only being paid £25k?

[housess]

I've not heard of a stipend before, apologies if I've got confused.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Here is a post in my general area. Stipend 13k, plus free meals.
www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BEH907/stipendiary-lecturer-in-french/

Another one. Stipend 8-9k. www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BEG951/stipendiary-lecturership-in-modern-languages-french-nineteenth-and-or-twentieth-century-literature/

Here's an advert (and there are many like it at the moment) for a generic research fellowship. Salary 20-23k.
www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BDR659/research-fellowships/

Here's another - this one actually cracks the 25k limit!
www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BDW349/keith-sykes-research-fellowship-in-italian-studies/

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

We get paid that amount because it is a normal amount for a person in their first postdoc to be paid. It is also, depressingly, not so unusual for people to do second, third, and even fourth postdocs - and these are not people who are ultimately 'unsuccessful' in academic careers. They include the people who end up as senior faculty and world-leading researchers.

A 'stipend' is what you call it when you can't advertise at that rate without falling foul of laws on minimum wage. The idea is that the person with the job works two jobs to earn enough - or completes his or her doctorate. Cheerful.

[housess]

Ah right, we are talking about different levels of jobs.

[housess]

The only person I know who is on a post doc research contract earns £35k.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

How nice for them.

However, as you see, many postdoc research contracts don't pay quite so much.

[housess]

No. But they're not the academics I was talking about. Even a very junior lecturer is 40k and a prof 60k+, that's certainly not underpaid. What you describe certainly is.

[Summerswallow]

In my field, there is no standard dress particularly. The men- I don't even know what they wear as I never really look at their clothes, but I guess chinos, cords, etc with a shirt or t-shirt, no suits, possibly a jacket if we were at a conference, maybe a cord one worn ironically (or not!). The women- dresses and skirts but certainly not of the office minimalist variety, more Boden on a bad day, or trousers and a blouse.

One of the best professors in my field wears a suit, she appears in the media a lot and rocks the look. I've gone in the other direction and started wearing jeans again, but smart ones, with good shoes, a smart jacket etc. Being an academic is about being able to think, and able to communicate, and not a lot else- so I wear clothes I can do that in and my teaching record/response on open days suggests that students respond very positively to that.

[Summerswallow]

Even a very junior lecturer is 40k and a prof 60k+, that's certainly not underpaid Nope, not at my institution, early 30's is the starting salary for lecturers. You may be in London, it's different elsewhere. My first research job after PhD was £25 grand a year, a few years ago mind you.

[housess]

I'm not in London.

[titchy]

Lol at a lecturer starting on £40k! £30 more like, and that'll be aged 35+ having done several post docs for peanuts.

[housess]

Just not my experience at all. I know several very senior staff who are only around 35.

[housess]

It clearly varies a lot from institution to institution.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

A lecturer starting on 40k! What bollocks.

And it's standardised, so clearly doesn't vary from institution to institution.

Anyway - yes, actually, the people I'm talking about are the people you were talking about. I commented about being underpaid. You laughed at the idea. But it's people like me who very often are the ones going to open days and teaching courses, because there are an awful lot of us. Sure, there are permanent staff who might be earning a bit more, and then more senior people like the ones you describe on 40k, and then there are even more senior people, right up to profs.

But it is crass and stupid to think that 'academics' can't be paid less than 40k, and ridiculous to imagine that it would be 'aspirational' for students to see their teachers wearing fancy suits they can't afford.

[GiantSteps]

No, junior lecturers start at a little over £30k. After a Bachelor's degree, a Masters, a PhD, teaching experience ( in HE) and scholarly publications. So very highly qualified. Far more so than, say, a common or garden lawyer.

[housess]

The university I am familiar with, and specifically the department, does not employ anyone lower a certain grade (and that grade is the equivalent of around 40k), the grades are publicly advertised. Senior lecturers/profs run open days. I am not disputing your point at all, I am just saying it is not the same across the board.

[housess]

I just looked up a random uni, I can't see anything lower than 40k on there either for a lecturer.

[Summerswallow]

I don't wish to divulge my stingy uni, but I have just looked up a couple of jobs, and post-docs (which are junior posts for post-PhD stage) are £28-32 and lecturers start on £34k.

Often teaching fellows are on less and on short-term contracts. 40% of the workforce of academics are on temporary contracts.

This is worse pay than nurses, teachers etc- I know, as I know these professionals and I know they get paid more than me for equivalent training and experience! The opportunity to earn more as a professor is there- 30 years down the line! And at open days, we have teaching fellows and lecturers aplenty, as well as more senior staff, everyone has to take a turn. No staying home as you earn under 40k...

[Needmoresleep]

America sounds worse:

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/28/adjunct-professors-homeless-sex-work-academia-poverty?CMP=fb_gu

[user918273645]

Research councils are forcing postdocs to be at the bottom of the postdoc scales to save money - this means 28k. If you want to pay more, you need to find the money from other sources.

No postdoc in my department paid by UK money gets more than 31k.

[user918273645]

Need, the US is using a lot of zero hours contracts at lower and mid tier universities. But if we compare the salary at Oxbridge to the salary for a tenured academic at a research intensive university in the US, the latter is far higher. The UK simply can't attract people to many of its prestigious named chairs these days as the salaries are ludicrous by international standards.

[Oldie2017]

It does not surprise me. I remember being in a Catholic church on holiday once and the priest mentioned his £2000 a year stipend (this was many years ago and it was about a third of the C of E ones my children's father told me, earned - they tended to marry so had a spouse and children to "support" so got a bit more but still tiny.... my chidlren's fathre was paid a nominal stipend from a Cathedral at the time (he was assistant organist which is not a nominal Sunday job it is a very intense awful hours job at least 6 days a week kind of part time.....)... So we know those stipends very well. He moved back into teaching after for the "higher" pay as head of department.

I do want teenage girls to know what pays what. Some go into things for the love of it and don't at that stage realise how expensive life is particularly once you have children. My son who is using his ancient history degree currently by driving Ocado vans is on about £20k. It's a pretty simple job (in fact after 3 weeks in it he is now so "experienced" he was put out yesterday with a new joiner to train them) and once you finish your shift that's it plus I think you get a discount on some of the food. You drive your van and deliver.

Lots of salary surveys are very misleading. Eg whenever they show lawyers' salaries they do some kind of average for new graduates but they don't show partners in the bigger firms are on £300k to £2m. It just never comes out. My doctor sibling earns a lot including private work (works very hard as do I and I earn a fair bit too).

Of course money does not matter to lots of people. Those Catholic priests on the whole are not motivated by money. "God" has called them. Academics tend not to be particularyl materialistic but I have known some who moved into business as I do a fair bit of technology/patent law and you see lots of collaborations and some people giving up the day job to become another Dyson (although most new businesses fail - it is by no means easy).