DD has changed her mind about which degree she wants to do

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

My DD has got a conditional offer from Birmingham to read English Literature. We visited yesterday and she loved the university and decided to make it her firm offer - she hasn't done anything about it yet though. All good so far. Well today she has decided she now wants to study Law instead (don't ask!). She phoned Birmingham today to see if she could change and they said no as all their places have been offered (as I thought). What are her options? I know she could take a year out and apply next year but she really doesn't want to do that. I was wondering if anyone has been through this or works in a uni and could advise. Thanks.

[Gannet123]

Law A level isn't a particularly good preparation for a Law degree, because of the leap between A level and degree level I referred to above. But it's no worse than many other subjects. However, subject choice isn't usually a factor in getting a place - the extent to which 'soft' and 'hard' A levels affect the application process is massively over exaggerated, particularly by some schools - mainly because widening participation considerations means that it's unfair to have 'hidden' admissions criteria such as disliking certain A levels; but also because there are better ways of selecting students than looking at what subjects they've done for a discipline where no prior knowledge is required. (I am Law Admissions Tutor at a RG and have been for some time, and have had this conversation with many other Law Admissions Tutors)
The most usual A level 'filter' for city and international law firms is ABB - candidates with lower than that are often just auto-filtered out. With ABB or higher you get your application read, although there may be other filters (e.g. First year contract law marks). A few have AAB, but only a few. I know a number of candidates with ABB, who came through our access programme, who have Magic and Silver Circle TCs.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Her predicted grades are A* A B for English, Law and Maths respectively. I'm not sure she truly understands how hard the path to becoming a lawyer is which is why I don't think it's for her. I'll let you know how she gets on with the phone call to Birmingham tomorrow.

[Gannet123]

I think it's important not to over exaggerate the difficulty of getting a legal career, in comparison to any other graduate career.

Someone predicted/achieving A*AB is academically capable of getting a good degree at a good university if they work smart and hard. Beyond that, it is a question of competences, commercial/contextual awareness and information, which means getting involved in University life and being proactive. It is also a question of persistence and realism - making enough applications, not being discouraged by rejections and accepting that if you don't succeed in getting a training contract in the first round, you need to improve your skill set and profile and apply again. My experience is that students from my institution who are focused, hard working and engaged (which is most of them) and who want training contracts get them, albeit not maybe at the first time of asking. Of course, this is not all top tier firms - but most TCs are offered by big national/international commercial firms.
The same is true for a lot of graduate careers. No-one just walks into a first graduate job now - you have to plan and work for it. Most competences required are transferable - so students who don't know what they want to do still need to get stuck in, build their skills and then see what is out there and what they are suited to. The problems come when students spent 3 years doing as little as possible at university and then expect to get any job they want. Students in those positions often take a few years after university to get to a point where they are properly employable in graduate positions.

Not saying this to contract your individual position with your dd yourownpersonaljesus - but just in case anyone else is reading - don't be put off a legal career because of a perception that it's much harder than any other graduate career.

[Bluntness100]

My daughter is doing law at Birmingham, it's an excellent uni, but I do have to say they require A A A for that law school. Different courses have different entry requirements. Even if she did get a place they would require three As. Some kids don't achieve what the offer asked and may still get a place, but that's down to clearing

I'd also say 400 kids started in first year law with her and 200 of them were kicked out for failing the first year exams or simply didn't make it back for the second year. It's not an easy subject and she needs to think about it really carefully. It's also very competitive and a long road to qualification.

[Bluntness100]

The other point to note is whereas Birmingham is three As for law entry, Reading is A A B. They are also very good.

The other thing is sometimes kids can convert. I really don't know how it works, but she could start with English lit at Birmingham and then convert to law maybe after her first year.

[Gannet123]

I'm afraid I struggle to believe that Birmingham University Law School has a 50% drop out rate after first year - the stats on Whatuni suggest about 8% www.whatuni.com/degrees/law-llb-hons/university-of-birmingham/cd/54983976/5666/ and they are official reported stats and will include people who have not completed the year due to illness or other personal circumstances (I think they also include people on temporary leave due to illness). Anything like a drop out rate of that nature would be causing a scandal in the sector, and placing the Law School in significant financial difficulty. My place, which is quite similar, has about 5-6% drop out, depending on who you count. Virtually none of them are straight up fails - they usually involve health or personal issues.

[sendsummer]

I'd also say 400 kids started in first year law with her and 200 of them were kicked out for failing the first year exams or simply didn't make it back for the second year
Bluntness a 50% attrition rate for first year of law at Birmingham shocked me so I checked on Unistats. That gives 5% or 8% if you include those who are taking a break. Therefore those who make the grades usually stay the course.
unistats.direct.gov.uk/subjects/study/10006840FT-K0156/ReturnTo/

[sendsummer]

Cross post with Garnett

[FlyAwayPeter]

I'd also say 400 kids started in first year law with her and 200 of them were kicked out for failing the first year exams or simply didn't make it back for the second year.

And here we go with rumour & hearsay! Almost as bad as The Student Room (which is appalling for rumour & getting things just plain wrong).

[sassymuffin]

My DD reads law and also has a friend that studies law at Birmingham Uni, her friend has just said that it definitely has not lost 50% of its law students at the end of first year of any cohort while she has been there.

As mentioned above it would cause a scandal and probably a massive internal review of teaching standards, at the very least it would warrant some kind of mention in law publications. In the 2017 complete university guide law rankings i has risen 6 places to 18th which would indicate that that it has good student satisfaction scores and graduate prospects.

[Brasstacks]

Don't study law. She can always take a conversion after her undergraduate degree. There are far more law graduates than there are jobs for them. I recommend rapid reading of "The Great University Con" by David Craig before making a choice, if you have a couple of days to decide. Also, look on the Law Society and Bar Council websites - they warn people off studying law as there are so few training opportunities compared with the numbers studying.

[Brasstacks]

Just seen this is an old thread! Sorry. Point stands though.