DD has changed her mind about which degree she wants to do

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

My DD has got a conditional offer from Birmingham to read English Literature. We visited yesterday and she loved the university and decided to make it her firm offer - she hasn't done anything about it yet though. All good so far. Well today she has decided she now wants to study Law instead (don't ask!). She phoned Birmingham today to see if she could change and they said no as all their places have been offered (as I thought). What are her options? I know she could take a year out and apply next year but she really doesn't want to do that. I was wondering if anyone has been through this or works in a uni and could advise. Thanks.

[Brasstacks]

Just seen this is an old thread! Sorry. Point stands though.

[Brasstacks]

Don't study law. She can always take a conversion after her undergraduate degree. There are far more law graduates than there are jobs for them. I recommend rapid reading of "The Great University Con" by David Craig before making a choice, if you have a couple of days to decide. Also, look on the Law Society and Bar Council websites - they warn people off studying law as there are so few training opportunities compared with the numbers studying.

[sassymuffin]

My DD reads law and also has a friend that studies law at Birmingham Uni, her friend has just said that it definitely has not lost 50% of its law students at the end of first year of any cohort while she has been there.

As mentioned above it would cause a scandal and probably a massive internal review of teaching standards, at the very least it would warrant some kind of mention in law publications. In the 2017 complete university guide law rankings i has risen 6 places to 18th which would indicate that that it has good student satisfaction scores and graduate prospects.

[FlyAwayPeter]

I'd also say 400 kids started in first year law with her and 200 of them were kicked out for failing the first year exams or simply didn't make it back for the second year.

And here we go with rumour & hearsay! Almost as bad as The Student Room (which is appalling for rumour & getting things just plain wrong).

[sendsummer]

Cross post with Garnett

[sendsummer]

I'd also say 400 kids started in first year law with her and 200 of them were kicked out for failing the first year exams or simply didn't make it back for the second year
Bluntness a 50% attrition rate for first year of law at Birmingham shocked me so I checked on Unistats. That gives 5% or 8% if you include those who are taking a break. Therefore those who make the grades usually stay the course.
unistats.direct.gov.uk/subjects/study/10006840FT-K0156/ReturnTo/

[Gannet123]

I'm afraid I struggle to believe that Birmingham University Law School has a 50% drop out rate after first year - the stats on Whatuni suggest about 8% www.whatuni.com/degrees/law-llb-hons/university-of-birmingham/cd/54983976/5666/ and they are official reported stats and will include people who have not completed the year due to illness or other personal circumstances (I think they also include people on temporary leave due to illness). Anything like a drop out rate of that nature would be causing a scandal in the sector, and placing the Law School in significant financial difficulty. My place, which is quite similar, has about 5-6% drop out, depending on who you count. Virtually none of them are straight up fails - they usually involve health or personal issues.

[Bluntness100]

The other point to note is whereas Birmingham is three As for law entry, Reading is A A B. They are also very good.

The other thing is sometimes kids can convert. I really don't know how it works, but she could start with English lit at Birmingham and then convert to law maybe after her first year.

[Bluntness100]

My daughter is doing law at Birmingham, it's an excellent uni, but I do have to say they require A A A for that law school. Different courses have different entry requirements. Even if she did get a place they would require three As. Some kids don't achieve what the offer asked and may still get a place, but that's down to clearing

I'd also say 400 kids started in first year law with her and 200 of them were kicked out for failing the first year exams or simply didn't make it back for the second year. It's not an easy subject and she needs to think about it really carefully. It's also very competitive and a long road to qualification.

[Gannet123]

I think it's important not to over exaggerate the difficulty of getting a legal career, in comparison to any other graduate career.

Someone predicted/achieving A*AB is academically capable of getting a good degree at a good university if they work smart and hard. Beyond that, it is a question of competences, commercial/contextual awareness and information, which means getting involved in University life and being proactive. It is also a question of persistence and realism - making enough applications, not being discouraged by rejections and accepting that if you don't succeed in getting a training contract in the first round, you need to improve your skill set and profile and apply again. My experience is that students from my institution who are focused, hard working and engaged (which is most of them) and who want training contracts get them, albeit not maybe at the first time of asking. Of course, this is not all top tier firms - but most TCs are offered by big national/international commercial firms.
The same is true for a lot of graduate careers. No-one just walks into a first graduate job now - you have to plan and work for it. Most competences required are transferable - so students who don't know what they want to do still need to get stuck in, build their skills and then see what is out there and what they are suited to. The problems come when students spent 3 years doing as little as possible at university and then expect to get any job they want. Students in those positions often take a few years after university to get to a point where they are properly employable in graduate positions.

Not saying this to contract your individual position with your dd yourownpersonaljesus - but just in case anyone else is reading - don't be put off a legal career because of a perception that it's much harder than any other graduate career.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Her predicted grades are A* A B for English, Law and Maths respectively. I'm not sure she truly understands how hard the path to becoming a lawyer is which is why I don't think it's for her. I'll let you know how she gets on with the phone call to Birmingham tomorrow.

[Gannet123]

Law A level isn't a particularly good preparation for a Law degree, because of the leap between A level and degree level I referred to above. But it's no worse than many other subjects. However, subject choice isn't usually a factor in getting a place - the extent to which 'soft' and 'hard' A levels affect the application process is massively over exaggerated, particularly by some schools - mainly because widening participation considerations means that it's unfair to have 'hidden' admissions criteria such as disliking certain A levels; but also because there are better ways of selecting students than looking at what subjects they've done for a discipline where no prior knowledge is required. (I am Law Admissions Tutor at a RG and have been for some time, and have had this conversation with many other Law Admissions Tutors)
The most usual A level 'filter' for city and international law firms is ABB - candidates with lower than that are often just auto-filtered out. With ABB or higher you get your application read, although there may be other filters (e.g. First year contract law marks). A few have AAB, but only a few. I know a number of candidates with ABB, who came through our access programme, who have Magic and Silver Circle TCs.

[KingPrawnOkay]

Take a gap year. To me it sounds like she doesn't really want to go at all but is feeling pushed to go to uni? My sixth form did the same, said I had to go because I had good grades. Wouldn't help me find an apprenticeship so I found one myself, my employer paid for my degree and I've had more success than my friends who went to uni because I've had experience. I'm not saying it's the right path for her but if she's changing her mind this late in the term it sounds like it might be a waste for her to go.

[eatyourveg]

Law A level is poor prep for a law degree. The best courses aren't that keen on it.
That seems at odds with this list from AQA which includes Oxbridge, Durham and Warwick. Its 8 years old though so perhaps these and other reputable institutions on the list have changed their minds Looks like OP's dd may have decided on something other than Law now anyway.

[bojorojo]

I would be concerned that Law A level is poor prep for a law degree. The best courses aren't that keen on it. I would do what course interests her and then do the GDL after if she still wants to do Law. She would have to decide which branch of law and then see how she can volunteer or work to gain experience in that field. It can be alarmingly expensive and not for the faint-hearted! Only do it if she is dedicated to hard work and gets excellent results. I don't think many top city firms recruit ABB A level candidates. They take the cream of the crop!

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks happy for sharing your son's experience. Glad it's working out for him. I wish my daughter would do the same. We'll see.

[happygardening]

I also think a gap year. DS2 is currently taking one. In yr 13 he wavered between not going to university and studying one of his pre U subjects so he didn't apply to university. Once he got his grades the idea of university seemed more appealing and he then decided to change subject (luckily he could) to something he fancied doing and he had time to investigate where to go. He's working/worked here and abroad learnt so much developed a really mature approach to work, got some great references and had a great time. He also thinks he's got "pissing around" out of his system and he's now looking forward to going off to university and studying in September.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks for the input on Law - very interesting. I forgot it was bank holiday weekend so DD will have to wait until Tuesday to call Birmingham about the other course. Just want it sorted!

[user262728]

I studied law as a pp mentioned it is very competitive. I took a year out prior to university and decided I still wanted to study it so went the following year. I loved the degree.

I worked in the field for a number of years before deciding I wanted to get out. I am a lawyer now for a huge company but not a law firm. One thing I did find about the degree is it's quite highly regarded and seems to open a lot of doors. A lot of people on my course have left but managed to get good jobs elsewhere not in the field. I don't necessarily think not knowing exactly what she wants to do is a bad thing. However I would encourage a year out as a paralegal or similar prior to paying out huge amounts for the solicitor/barrister course straight after her degree if she is unsure at that point if she wants to continue with law.

[JanetBrown2015]

That other course sounds a good idea.
My daughters by the way didn't read law but ended up happily as lawyers. I read law, loved it and am a happy lawyer too.

Getting on to a good law degree course can require higher grades than for some other courses so it is not the easiest one to switch to although I really enjoyed my law degree so I would never put anyone off it.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks ememem. I think I've managed to put her off Law! I explained how competitive it is and how hard she'd need to work. Glad you are happier now.

[ememem84]

I studied psych at uni and didthe gdl and then lpc. I worked in a law firm working my way up from paralegal to senior associate. Pay was great. Hours were not.

I live offshore and did offshore funds/banking/corporate law work. Long hours plus zero overtime equalled absolute hell.

I left the profession two years ago. And now work in a related field. I can call myself a lawyer as am fully qualified. But am non practising. I earn less money. Work shorter hours and am happier.

Law is a competitive field. If your dd wants a career and is willing to work hard and sacrifice everything kids etc (as was seemingly the norm for women in my location) the go for it. I wanted free time. And kids before it was too late. It's difficult to get back into or work part time after kids unless you're at a certain level in your career.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks sendsummer I'll show her that course too. Also thanks to everyone that took the time to reply - it really is appreciated.

[sendsummer]

yourownpersonal yout DD will need to make her own decisions but you and others can tell her if you think the timing of that decision is not right.
University is not school. Subjects with relatively few contact hours (humanities and social sciences) mean that the development of the student and their degree result will depend almost entirely on independent study and extensive reading plus of course improving their essay writing skills. She has to decide what she would most like to spend her time reading and writing about of her own volition rather than think it will be similar to attending sixth form lessons.

If she likes law, politics and economics, international relations is another degree that might appeal and may be one that she could change to at Birmingham.

www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/govsoc/international-relations.aspx?OpenSection=JointHonourCombinations

If she does successfully switch, she should go on an open day for those subjects to give her more information before she firms any offers in August.

[titchy]

Great!

OP - there's no mystery about published admission requirements. If they don't specify A level maths that means they don't need applicants to have A level maths. If they wanted applicants to have an A grade in Maths A level they'd say so.