DD has changed her mind about which degree she wants to do

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

My DD has got a conditional offer from Birmingham to read English Literature. We visited yesterday and she loved the university and decided to make it her firm offer - she hasn't done anything about it yet though. All good so far. Well today she has decided she now wants to study Law instead (don't ask!). She phoned Birmingham today to see if she could change and they said no as all their places have been offered (as I thought). What are her options? I know she could take a year out and apply next year but she really doesn't want to do that. I was wondering if anyone has been through this or works in a uni and could advise. Thanks.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks both of you. Some food for thought there. I do think that her decisions were rushed and although she did put some effort into researching degrees and universities I think the problem is that she doesn't know what she wants to do job wise. When I asked her earlier what she actually wanted to do after university she said "work in the city". She needs to narrow that down obviously. I don't want her to do the English degree if her heart isn't in it. I have been trying to persuade her to take a year out but I doubt she will.

[Gannet123]

To be honest, 'work in the city' isn't a bad starting point for a first year undergraduate in terms of career planning. She'll have lots of opportunities at university to find out more about the range of careers available, most of which she won't have any clue about right now, and how her skills and preferences might fit them. We don't expect first years to have a clear career plan on day one - and the ones that do are often a pain in the neck, because they have formed it on relatively little information and won't consider other, more interesting or more suitable alternatives. The point is to develop that career plan by being proactive whilst at university.
Having said that, if she wants to work in the city in banking or finance, clearly Maths is going to be important and if it's not a strength then she will probably struggle - city banking and accountancy firms recruit aggressively from those on science, engineering and mathematical degree programmes. If she wants to work in Law, then, as others have said, she can either do a Law degree or do another subject and then the conversion. It is really important, however, that the degree subject suits her interests and aptitudes, because if she wants to work in the City in law she will need very good academic grades as well as a broad range of relevant competences (and will need to get at least ABB at A level) and if she doesn't enjoy the degree then she will struggle to achieve, both academically and in terms of skills and competences, to compete at the level of City law firms. Right now, her priority, I think, is to decide what she wants to study - a good degree from a good university will keep those doors open no matter what subject it is in. She can work out where she wants to head next once she is in university- any decent university will have masses of career planning support, talks, networking events and other opportunities for her, either to confirm her ambition to work in the City, or to draw her attention to other directions she might prefer.

[RockyRoadster]

The course linked by titchy is showing as available in extra, so it looks as though they still have spaces available for this year's entry. It might be worth asking if she could change to that?

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Gannet that's good to hear that not all students know what career they want at this stage. I think she will enjoy the English degree as she loves it at A Level but I'm still worried that she doesn't actively choose to read if she doesn't have to - she'd much rather be watching reality shows! The course content sounds really good and, as I said previously, she loved the university (she visited Exeter and hated it). I suggested she speaks to her English teachers when she returns to school next week about it.
Rocky she's at work until late tonight but if she's interested in the course you linked to she can call them tomorrow. Would one of the As not need to be in maths though?

[FlyAwayPeter]

That means that really properly finding out about the academic discipline and the course can take a back seat, and then it turns out to be not what they were expecting. This is particularly prevalent in Law, where people think of the degree as a means to an end rather than as an academic discipline

Very very good advice ...

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

I agree. I think she's only considered a career in law as she thinks it pays well (I've tried telling her that isn't always the case and is a very competitive field to get into). She is doing Law A Level which she finds really interesting but I'm not sure that's enough.
I think the bottom line is that she has no idea what she wants to do and isn't actually passionate about anything.

[FlyAwayPeter]

Gap year. Gap yea. Gap year.

But maybe just because I'm a bit sick & tired of teaching students like this.

If she doesn't like reading, then I withdraw my recommendation to read EngLit. I get sooooo tired of students who don't do the reading.

But she won't get a City job and make money if she doesn't get a very good degree, from a very good university. City jobs don't pay like they used to for trainees (about time too), and after Brexit who knows whether the City of London will still be quite the centre for international banking & law.

[Gannet123]

Agree with FlyAwayPeter. I think she needs to think quite carefully about why she wants to go to university at all - it's a lot of debt to get into if you're not sure you're in the right place. There's a lot of pressure on young people to go to university and I think some of them would benefit from at least an awareness that there are other ways through life - if only to put off university for a year or two until they are clearer about what they want to do. But obviously it's her decision and you're just trying to give her the best advice you can!
Law might be the right thing for her, if she's enjoying her A level and if she's also interested in Politics and Economics - the thing with a law degree is that there are a lot of compulsory modules, much more than in most other degree courses, so there's usually something you hate, but also it's pretty difficult not to find at least some of it interesting, and it's so broad based that people can use it to find out interests they never thought they had. Having said that, A level and degree level Law are very very different - degree level requires much more independent reasoning and judgment, whereas A level is a bit 'insert tab A into slot B' in terms of the way pupils think through problems. And there's the criminal law problem I referred to earlier, and the massive amount of reading that needs to be done - if she's not a regular reader she will need to become one to get her reading speed up to scratch to cover the ground, and to get used to spending 20-25 hours a week reading cases and books. But I also speak to quite a few English students who are trying to swap course because it's not the same as A level English - it's quite a common thing for me to hear - so the change from A level to degree will be an issue whatever, I think.

[FlyAwayPeter]

The change is to do with the level of independence, and the speed of University studies. Whereas at A Level, students might spend 3 or 4 weeks working on one text, in spoon-fed bits, working through in chunks, at university we do at least a text a week (and this isn't in EngLit but a very similar Humanities subject).

As you say Gannet students in these sorts of subjects need to get used to reading as work which takes up about half their time. My students would need to spend 1 to 2 days a week preparing for my module, plus then work for their other module.

And we also expect them to think synthetically, across a wide arc of time/ideas/genres. Again, A Levels no longer prepare them for thinking big, and supporting that broad view with broad reading.

Sad really, how short changed they are now.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thank you so much for your opinions. A lot of what you have both written I have said to my daughter, though I'm no expert. I went to university as a mature student and studied something I was interested in which then led me into teaching (had no idea that's what I wanted to do when I started). When I was at school hardly anyone went on to university. Of course it's very different for young people now and it's almost expected that most of them will go to university, whether that is the best thing or not. I'm not even sure if other options were discussed with her as she's always been academic. I'm now worried that she's making the wrong choices and will have regrets. Ultimately though she needs to make her own decisions and I can only pass on all of the advice given.

[RockyRoadster]

Yourown the A in maths they talk about is at GCSE as I read it.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

DD just popped in between work and going to the pub so showed her the course titchy linked to. She is definitely interested and will call the university in the morning on the off chance that she can change to that. Yeah I read it as that too Rocky I just thought that they would prefere an A in maths A Level too rather than maths being the B.

[titchy]

Great!

OP - there's no mystery about published admission requirements. If they don't specify A level maths that means they don't need applicants to have A level maths. If they wanted applicants to have an A grade in Maths A level they'd say so.

[sendsummer]

yourownpersonal yout DD will need to make her own decisions but you and others can tell her if you think the timing of that decision is not right.
University is not school. Subjects with relatively few contact hours (humanities and social sciences) mean that the development of the student and their degree result will depend almost entirely on independent study and extensive reading plus of course improving their essay writing skills. She has to decide what she would most like to spend her time reading and writing about of her own volition rather than think it will be similar to attending sixth form lessons.

If she likes law, politics and economics, international relations is another degree that might appeal and may be one that she could change to at Birmingham.

www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/govsoc/international-relations.aspx?OpenSection=JointHonourCombinations

If she does successfully switch, she should go on an open day for those subjects to give her more information before she firms any offers in August.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks sendsummer I'll show her that course too. Also thanks to everyone that took the time to reply - it really is appreciated.

[ememem84]

I studied psych at uni and didthe gdl and then lpc. I worked in a law firm working my way up from paralegal to senior associate. Pay was great. Hours were not.

I live offshore and did offshore funds/banking/corporate law work. Long hours plus zero overtime equalled absolute hell.

I left the profession two years ago. And now work in a related field. I can call myself a lawyer as am fully qualified. But am non practising. I earn less money. Work shorter hours and am happier.

Law is a competitive field. If your dd wants a career and is willing to work hard and sacrifice everything kids etc (as was seemingly the norm for women in my location) the go for it. I wanted free time. And kids before it was too late. It's difficult to get back into or work part time after kids unless you're at a certain level in your career.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks ememem. I think I've managed to put her off Law! I explained how competitive it is and how hard she'd need to work. Glad you are happier now.

[JanetBrown2015]

That other course sounds a good idea.
My daughters by the way didn't read law but ended up happily as lawyers. I read law, loved it and am a happy lawyer too.

Getting on to a good law degree course can require higher grades than for some other courses so it is not the easiest one to switch to although I really enjoyed my law degree so I would never put anyone off it.

[user262728]

I studied law as a pp mentioned it is very competitive. I took a year out prior to university and decided I still wanted to study it so went the following year. I loved the degree.

I worked in the field for a number of years before deciding I wanted to get out. I am a lawyer now for a huge company but not a law firm. One thing I did find about the degree is it's quite highly regarded and seems to open a lot of doors. A lot of people on my course have left but managed to get good jobs elsewhere not in the field. I don't necessarily think not knowing exactly what she wants to do is a bad thing. However I would encourage a year out as a paralegal or similar prior to paying out huge amounts for the solicitor/barrister course straight after her degree if she is unsure at that point if she wants to continue with law.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks for the input on Law - very interesting. I forgot it was bank holiday weekend so DD will have to wait until Tuesday to call Birmingham about the other course. Just want it sorted!

[happygardening]

I also think a gap year. DS2 is currently taking one. In yr 13 he wavered between not going to university and studying one of his pre U subjects so he didn't apply to university. Once he got his grades the idea of university seemed more appealing and he then decided to change subject (luckily he could) to something he fancied doing and he had time to investigate where to go. He's working/worked here and abroad learnt so much developed a really mature approach to work, got some great references and had a great time. He also thinks he's got "pissing around" out of his system and he's now looking forward to going off to university and studying in September.

[Yourownpersonaljesus]

Thanks happy for sharing your son's experience. Glad it's working out for him. I wish my daughter would do the same. We'll see.

[bojorojo]

I would be concerned that Law A level is poor prep for a law degree. The best courses aren't that keen on it. I would do what course interests her and then do the GDL after if she still wants to do Law. She would have to decide which branch of law and then see how she can volunteer or work to gain experience in that field. It can be alarmingly expensive and not for the faint-hearted! Only do it if she is dedicated to hard work and gets excellent results. I don't think many top city firms recruit ABB A level candidates. They take the cream of the crop!

[eatyourveg]

Law A level is poor prep for a law degree. The best courses aren't that keen on it.
That seems at odds with this list from AQA which includes Oxbridge, Durham and Warwick. Its 8 years old though so perhaps these and other reputable institutions on the list have changed their minds Looks like OP's dd may have decided on something other than Law now anyway.

[KingPrawnOkay]

Take a gap year. To me it sounds like she doesn't really want to go at all but is feeling pushed to go to uni? My sixth form did the same, said I had to go because I had good grades. Wouldn't help me find an apprenticeship so I found one myself, my employer paid for my degree and I've had more success than my friends who went to uni because I've had experience. I'm not saying it's the right path for her but if she's changing her mind this late in the term it sounds like it might be a waste for her to go.