Doctors, would you recommend beginning a career in medicine now?

[tropicalfish]

Hi,
There is alot of negative media attention on the life of junior doctors, junior doctor contracts etc. I dont know any doctors myself really and wondered is it all as bad as is made out in the media? I personally am completely against the new contract.

Would you recommend a career in medicine and if so where would you do it.
I would have thought being a GP might be a good option but I hear there are lots of vacancies so presume this is not considered to be a good choice.
Is working in London much worse than working elsewhere for instance?
My dc was thinking about doing medicine but is reconsidering because of the worries about doing medicine in that you can get sued, people could make a complaint about you, you have to study all through your career, pay alot of money to do exams and then not really get paid enough to afford to live easily particularly considering the many years of study and lifestyle sacrifices that have to be made.
TF

[lostinmiddlemarch]

I can give some info on Bulgaria. Perfectly reputable universities are offering medical degree courses taught in English for peanuts in terms of fees and A level results are virtually a non-issue (though some do have their own entrance exam, this does not seem to be viewed as much of a hurdle). This doesn't mean the course is rotten or it turns out crap teachers...it means that a lower percentage of starting students will make it. And then you have the process to go through to work in the UK, but that in itself is do-able for many Bulgarian graduates. It's far from being a sub-standard degree.

As a lucrative way to get English students, it's a win-win for the universities. Their percentage pass rate is not exactly advertised, but we can assume it's not fantastic, or at least we would hope it's not as good, for the degree to be worthwhile.

There is the drawback about learning Bulgarian of course. Translators are available but proficiency is required after a certain number of years.

[lostinmiddlemarch]

turns out crap doctors

[temporaryusername]

I think that ideally, people who are planning to work abroad should train abroad. Although the fees for medical school in the UK are high, they are a fraction of the actual cost of training the student. So if they want to work somewhere else, it is quite selfish though understandable to train in the UK.

[Molio]

Needmoresleep DS only got to the one open day, so his research was internet too. He applied to Bristol and Birmingham as well as Imperial and Oxford - has one or both of the former two now gone BMAT/ UKCAT? Which is the only uni asking for neither?

I fully accept that there's an industry, but I do wonder if those feeding it gain anything from it or really have a greater chance of success.

[tropicalfish]

An employer can reduce pay and conditions unilaterally and then the employees have a right to leave. The employer can then reemploy new people that will accept the worse terms and conditions. Maybe this is a trend, to make the NHS cheaper. Upon privatisation, these people are much more likely to accept even worse pay and conditions.

[lostinmiddlemarch]

I agree temporary.

[bojorojo]

Regarding young people doing courses their parents want them to, this is very much the case for many overseas students. Where my DDs went to school, the Nigerians, Chinese, Sri Lankans, Indians and a few Russians and Koreans were very guided by their parents as to the courses they took. Have you looked at the high numbers of overseas students doing Pharmacy? Law was very popular as was Medicine and Dentistry with some groups. Usually degrees that directly lead to employment. The very rich Saudi girls will do as many courses as possible here or in the USA to avoid going home! They have become used to a certain amount of freedom.

The owner of my filling station, from Sri Lanka, was amazed my DD chose MFL. "Why is she doing that?" He asked. "What job will she get?" "Could she not have studied Law?"

[Needmoresleep]

Molio, Birmingham now has UKCAT as does someone else, leaving only Bristol. Bristol 's numbers were high already, not least because they are only seeking AAB from a long list of contextualised schools. This year they must be even higher.

DDs UKCAT was OK but not great. Partly because the aircon had failed and it was a hot summer day, because she did not put the weeks of practice in that some others do, and because she is dyslexic and ran out of steam by the end of normal time so could not take advantage of the extra. Or maybe it is a genuine test of aptitude. Either way it's quite tough that a single test counts for so much. She failed the first sift at Nottingham as 7A*s at GCSE plus her UKCAT were not good enough. But luckily is still in the running elsewhere.

We shall see. She really wants to study medicine and is calm and practical. But, perhaps like TFS daughter, may not be able to face going through it all again.

The plan B for next year might be Ireland where the grades asked for are higher but they don't interview or ask for personal statements. It sounds fun. None of us know enough about careers following degrees in physics or chemistry to be able to help her.

[DeoGratias]

tropic "An employer can reduce pay and conditions unilaterally and then the employees have a right to leave. The employer can then reemploy new people that will accept the worse terms and conditions. Maybe this is a trend, to make the NHS cheaper. Upon privatisation, these people are much more likely to accept even worse pay and conditions." Only for new workers. If you already have your pay and terms if the employer seeks to reduce them and you don't agree then they can't just impose them.

[tropicalfish]

'If you already have your pay and terms if the employer seeks to reduce them and you don't agree then they can't just impose them'

Sadly this is what has happened to Junior doctors.. And in a way that will cause them significant hardship.

[cressetmama]

Have not RTFT, but it seems to me that doctors, and teachers, and anyone else getting a public service career and professional pay scale having had their university fees subsidised ought to be indentured to provide some years service to the country that paid for their training, perhaps akin to a short service commission. Students who get military sponsorships are required to serve their country for 5-8 years post qualification, in return for a lower cost education. Then, go abroad for a comfier life if that's what they want to do.

[Molio]

Oxbridge degrees regardless of course cost far, far more than the fees any home student is actually charged, are they expected to 'serve their country' for 5-8 years too?

Ironically a previous poster on this or possibly another thread was complaining about how her medic child would be repaying its student loan at 9% of its salary forever (I think that's what she said). So there seems to be conflicting views on the cost of medical training.

[GirlFromMars1]

Short answer- no!

[lostinmiddlemarch]

Why do doctors on mumsnet so rarely respond to the suggestions from temporary and cresset? Is it that they have a point, or is there an answer you can't be bothered to repeat again?

[lostinmiddlemarch]

Suggestions re: years of service requirement in return for subsidised training (right across the board but particularly in relation to medicine because of its very high cost and rate of emigration).

[DeoGratias]

(tropical, if a contract says one side can change it without consent of the other then you can change it but most contracts do not give that unilateral right. So for most employees (most are not unionised and most people work for employers who only employ under 5 people in the UK amazingly!) if they are having a tough time they often do try to persuade employees to move to a 4 day week as the alternative is redundancy and often employees will agree but they do not have to. So if the employer stands its ground and says your pay is halved the employee can walk out and claim constructive dismissal.... However I have no idea what the NHS contracts say - another reason many of us chose to be lawyers etc rather than doctors working for the awful state where it has always been known you are not in a free market and you are at its mercy. The NHS contracts might well include a clause saying the employer has the right to make major changes without consent or the state might decide to make changes in breach of contract and take the risk people will resign and claim unfair/constructive dismissal where they have worked the 2 year qualifying period for those claims as most people would rather have a job even at lower pay than no job. So in practice plenty of employees and other people with contracts accept unilateral and disadvantageous changes to their terms as the lesser of two evils as the last thing they want to do is have no job and have to start litigation).

[Stillwishihadabs]

Deo for someone from a medical family you are showing a breathtaking ignorance of how life is for "junior" doctors (the first 16 years of my career). They change employers either 6 monthly of yearly, therefore effectively the new contract can be imposed. Did you say your brother was a doctor ?

[mags2024]

It is not anyone's job to recommend or not. If he / she wants to they will find away and if they don't its not ment to be. We are both in Medicine and have never encourage or discouraged - son was going to play cricket professionally. It didn't work out so took a gap year learning and living in Germany. Still no idea what to do so applied to Russell group uni to do a science degree - GCSE / A's were ok but not exceptional. He had worked for Mind voluntarily at school and kept this up and did similar help in Germany. Half way through his Biology degree at S'hampton he announced he was going to do Medicine. He spent the summer relearning to pass GAMSET etc and got offers from all the med schools he applied to. He was under no illusion as to the diffficulties involved in a life in medicine - he spent a good deal of his childhood being chucked in the back of the car whilst l finished off seeing some one, listening to our friends grumbling and us too. He is an F1 now and he is more switched on about what he wants, where he's going and how to achieve it than we ever were. He is well travelled and can speak several languages, he looks forward not back at regrets of what might have been as perhaps we do due to poor job choices with hind sight. He sees the world offering job opportunities not just the NHS and the odd exchange as we did. What l am trying to say is your child will choose it if they want it enough.

In my son's case from being mediocre at school he really "flew" when he went to uni and l think Southampton opened his eyes to what he was capable of- hense he did post grad medicine.

[mags2024]

Just one little thing re fees - my son has student loan close on £50k for 2 degrees. His German girl friend, who trained in Cardiff, only had to pay what she would have paid in Germany and it has cost her £6k. So for her the EEC has worked well!!

[Mrsmorton]

Why don't other people (like English students or French students) have to work for a public service? They cost money to train as well and have lower life earnings in general so don't pay as much into the system?

Also ( as with dentists) there isn't enough money in the NHS to employ them all even for one year, what happens then?

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

Good question mrs. I wouldn't dismiss the idea at all. However! Teachers are much cheaper to train, meaning that they are already paying a higher proportion of their fees as it is. More importantly their lifetime salary is much lower so they are not getting as good a 'return' on their money as it is. Say what you will, medicine in the UK is heavily subsidised and the true cost of the degree is much, much higher. So it's reasonable for tax payers, and the NHS, to expect a return on that. Instead, we are losing these expensively trained doctors, who benefit from the system here and go on to get the best of both worlds somewhere else. There is simply not enough money in the pot to go hemorrhaging it like that. If we were to make teachers work for the state to get the same proportion of 'money's worth' out of them, they would work for a much shorter time.

[DeoGratias]

I didn't say new contracts cannot be changed. I was just answering the legal point about existing contracts and even there I said that they can be changed if the other party to the contract is allowed to change them unilaterally - something we look out for in all contracts we look at.

[Stillwishihadabs]

But deogratis it is irrelevant whether contracts can or cannot be changed as junior doctors have to effectively resign every 6 to 12 months.

[cruusshed]

If society deteriorates to the say so of the bean counters and their determination of "return on investment" - you could see a situation where the UK chose not to train 'expensive" professionals at all and just recruited directly from abroad - so zero cost to the UK. But I dont think that this is anything new - the UK has been under training the numbers needed and recruiting Drs and other medical staff from OS for decades.

The current decline in working conditions suggests that medical schools should select not just on grades but on physical and mental resilience if this is the new environment that medics are expected to work in.

[Needmoresleep]

crusshed, medical schools are already doing this. Bristol might be a good example. Only 20% weighting during the initial sift is on academic performance, the rest on personal characteristics evidenced in the PS and school reference. Interviews are then scored independently from information received via UCAS. This approach is not uncommon. Plenty of others treat achieving acceptable "grades" as an initial hurdle, but base their selection of from within that pool on much mider criteria. Achieving 4A*s does not guarantee a place at medical school.