Doctors, would you recommend beginning a career in medicine now?

[tropicalfish]

Hi,
There is alot of negative media attention on the life of junior doctors, junior doctor contracts etc. I dont know any doctors myself really and wondered is it all as bad as is made out in the media? I personally am completely against the new contract.

Would you recommend a career in medicine and if so where would you do it.
I would have thought being a GP might be a good option but I hear there are lots of vacancies so presume this is not considered to be a good choice.
Is working in London much worse than working elsewhere for instance?
My dc was thinking about doing medicine but is reconsidering because of the worries about doing medicine in that you can get sued, people could make a complaint about you, you have to study all through your career, pay alot of money to do exams and then not really get paid enough to afford to live easily particularly considering the many years of study and lifestyle sacrifices that have to be made.
TF

[Molio]

Helen I think there probably are a few high fliers prepared to stay in the UK for a multitude of reasons. I don't see that you can generalize meaningfully from the particular of your DD's friendship group.

Medicine might well not be the job it 'used to be'. Nor are many many other professional jobs the jobs they 'used to be'. The army now has its members on active service to an alarmingly stressful degree instead of merely endlessly training in case the Russians moved west. People in the City don't roll in at 10am and leave at 3pm with a boozy lunch to punctuate the day. So much of life has changed and the medical profession isn't alone, but it is still a vocation and highly respected with reasonable pay and good prospects of job retention.

[RedHelenB]

tbf los inmiddlemarch BBC grades in the past would probably be equivalent of 3 As nowadays. In my school only 2 people got all As and they went to Cambridge. To do medicine you needed bbc or bb but only about 10% of the population did A levels.

[tropicalfish]

lostinmiddlemarch, well done for going ahead and doing the course even though its not in the UK. The reality is that there are fewer places for medicine applicants than should be, so great candidates might not get an offer.

[Wolpertinger]

Middlemarch how old was that psychiatrist? I started medicine in 1993 and all the offers were AAB then - and BBC in the 1980s is not what it would be now. Plus there was a heck of a lot less to learn in the 80s than there is now, half of the stuff hadn't been invented then. Treatment for a heart attack used to be just lie in bed for 6 weeks for example.

Admissions tutors have always been willing to take a punt on a few people with lower grades on the basis that they might be late maturing and do better when studying a subject they were actually interested in. But once on the course, if you don't cut it, you are out. There are always a lot of drop outs who can't make the grades once on the course.

[Trojanhorsebox]

My offer was CCC 30 years ago - I applied to London med schools, the standard offer for most of them was Bs and Cs but you had to go to an interview before getting an offer or not. Places like Bristol made offers to my friends without interview but As and Bs. What was offered to attract people did not match the grades people actually got - this was in the days some people were getting EE offers for Oxbridge.

[sleeplessinderbyshire]

I'm a GP. I quite like aspects of my job but if I could go back and do it all over again I would absolutely not study medicine. I'd be gutted if my kids chose to be doctors (they are small so a long way off).

Massive student debts, new contract, poor morale, under filled and dangerous rotas... Absolutely would not recommend it to anyone.

[Stillwishihadabs]

My offer was BBB or BBC in 1993.

[stitch10yearson]

Dont do it. All the negatives you hear are true. If you want to help people, go into one of the allied health professions, all the fun and reward of medicine without the aggravation, risks, debt, stress.

There is no money in it either. Everything you earn is used to pay off the loans you have accrued whilst studying in the first place, and anything left over is pointless because you have no time to spend it, except in the hospital canteen

[Ratatattat]

To the person who said teachers and other professions get complaints. Well true but how many jobs are responsible for life and death decisions. One wrong decision after a long day could lead to loss of life, getting sued, name in papers.
Doctors do a tough job and I'm glad people still want to do it tbh.

[GiraffeHouse]

Absolutely wouldn't recommend it. I am exhausted and have no idea how I am going to carry on at this pace. The tragedy is I enjoyed it for years despite the hard work, long hours etc, but frankly it has really got out of hand now.
My children will be doctors over my dead body. That about sums it up.

[stitch10yearson]

And to the posters comparing teachers long hours, Ive done both, and I can say categorically, that I work longer hours as a doctor than I ever did as a teacher.

[Goingtobefree]

I am a NHS consultant with no private practice. My husband is also a NHS consultant and we both are working in acute specialities. I do love my job but it was a long hard struggle to become a consultant and our pay during our long years of training and work life balance was not great. I have mentored a number of junior trainees to take up acute specialities like medicine, a and e etc., but the morale is so low now, the working conditions for junior doctors awful that I cannot bear to recommend Certain speciliaties to my juniors anymore as these young women want to have family ,children and I cannot see how this will work with the current rota( I have been a consultant for the last 5 years and had both my kids while training, went back to work in 3 month after first child but somehow could just about manage childcare but no way I would be able to do it now- anyone want to look after my child when my rota asks me to work midday to 2:00am which is legal but how the hell can you sort out childcare?)



I am really relieved that my daughter who is currently in the middle of her Gsce year don't want to do medicine and hope she does not change her mind. Yes, she may end in not so well paid job( very few doctors make kind of money you read in daily mail though!) but life is not about money and most doctors did not choose to do medicine for money!

[smileyhappymummy]

Thing is, GP is also fairly rubbish for childcare. My daughter goes to a nursery which opens from 7.45 to 5.45pm. I cannot be there to do either the nursery drop off or pick up if I'm working a GP day. Because I'm there from 7.30 to 7.30 (at least).
And - I am someone who really wanted to look after people and I don't sit and clock watch. This is why I end up running up to an hour late in surgery some days and end the day completely exhausted. I went into this job hoping to help people - but the reality is that I just can't do it. 10 minute appointments are not long enough and we don't have enough capacity to cope with the demand. And how can I just say - well, if I get sued I have the insurance to deal with it? The worry is not just about getting sued - it's about missing something - and that can happen even if you aren't incompetent unfortunately.

[smileyhappymummy]

Incidentally I got a EE offer for Oxford. But that was in the days of the entrance exam - so it was an EE offer having sat their own entrance exam. I actually got AAAA

[Trojanhorsebox]

smileyhappymummy that's exactly what I meant about people's offers not matching their grades, I did realize it was after the entrance exam as it happened to some of my friends! I didn't mean to offend! Our offer was CCC but I don't know anyone who got that either, I didn't.

[tropicalfish]

I was quite against my dd applying to do medicine but also really pleased she wanted to do something as challenging and meaningful. I was against it mainly because I think you need to be very very physically resillient to cope with the shifts, antisocial hours and long working days and then how would this fit in with family life. Quite honestly, I think there are easier ways of making a living even if you don't earn as much money.
One of my dd's concerns was that if lots of doctors leave the NHS because of the new contract than this will make the position of doctors that remain even more difficult.

[SnuffleGruntSnorter]

No. Honestly it's so horrendously stressful. I am married to another professional who works hard but even he says my hours (both those on the rota and what I actually work) are crazy. There's a culture of bullying and belittling in places. You're under crazy amounts of pressure and are regularly put in impossible situations - eg. Two very unwell patients in different places but only one of you covering the wards that night.

Every other patient complains to you about the long wait and you can't blame them - they've waited a long time in pain when they're worried. But if you spend ten minutes apologising and calming them down the wait gets longer and your subsequent patients angrier.

Constantly feeling like taking a few minutes to empty your bladder or have something to eat might have a huge negative impact on someone. Not being able to answer half your bleeps because it goes off ten times during the phone call to answer one of them...

And in real terms we've already had a huge pay cut since 2005 before the new contract is even implemented.

[Molio]

tropicalfish if it was my DC having these sorts of doubts then I'd say don't start the course and reapply next year for something different. These doubts are your DD's yes? Not your own?

[Clobbered]

Only do medicine if you cannot imagine doing anything else and are deaf to all argument. Honestly, unless you feel that strongly about it, you won't survive. It's hideous these days.

[tropicalfish]

yes, Clobbered and Molio, I quite agree.
I think my DD was thinking it would be an intellectually stimulating challenging career helping people but then subsequently felt that the negatives of the profession as have been discussed here were too significant to be overlooked. You have to actually want to do nothing else I think.
I just want to say how much I do respect doctors for what they do.

[Kr1stina]

There are lots of intellectually stimulating careers that help people . It's not in itself a good enough reason to do medicine . Let alone when you have all these other concerns .

[DeoGratias]

I am certainly glad I picked law. Others in my family are doctors. We have had many a competition on MN about who works longer hours - hospital doctors or City lawyers which is fairly pointless. If you want to earn a lot of money which I've always wanted to do pick something where you can work for yourself and control your life once you are older and have the experience to own your own show. Also as many men and women have to compete with people like I am who like our work and want to work long hours that does put those who want to work short hours at a competitive disadvantage in many high paid jobs and it is hard to square that circle.

[Molio]

tropicalfish DeoGratias makes the good point that different professions do get very competitive about who has the worst hours etc etc. There's probably not much real argument here about who has the most onerous working conditions but my eldest DD did repeated stints until crazy hours of the morning when she was completing her training contract at a City law firm, and was expected to work with perfect intellectual clarity at 3am at a younger age than a junior doctor. These are all tough jobs and you really do have to want to do them to ride the storms. Child care is exceptionally difficult in all these professions and it's very, very common for partners to be in the same line of work, with equal pressure. Generally life only works once children come along if one or other partner is prepared to take a step back, or if there's a remarkable granny in the wings. Doctors don't have a complete monopoly of these difficulties. Bullying and belittling is common in all lines of work - I'm surprised doctors who complain of that aren't worldy enough to guess that.

The reason I say I'd be worried on a DC's behalf if they were having doubts is because although DS1 has enjoyed the work enormously, there's no doubt that he's had to work harder than any of his siblings in terms of sheer volume. Mind you, if I'd paid any attention to some of the posts on these threads I'd have assumed that it was a dead cert he'd be plunged into deep depression by now, and been burned out, which mercifully he's not. Nor are his many friends, indeed I can't think of one who's dropped out. On the positive side I think it's worth remembering that this is a very rewarding profession indeed, with people at the other end, not merely takeover bids, and there's massive merit in that.

On the one hand I think I'd encourage her to think long and hard if it's really for her but on the other, given that she's got the chance if she wants it (which so many don't have), I'd also point out the plus points of the profession and the possibility of regret if she takes a different path because there'll be no going back, not easily.

[lostinmiddlemarch]

los inmiddlemarch BBC grades in the past would probably be equivalent of 3 As nowadays

Simply not true I'm afraid.