Doctors, would you recommend beginning a career in medicine now?

[tropicalfish]

Hi,
There is alot of negative media attention on the life of junior doctors, junior doctor contracts etc. I dont know any doctors myself really and wondered is it all as bad as is made out in the media? I personally am completely against the new contract.

Would you recommend a career in medicine and if so where would you do it.
I would have thought being a GP might be a good option but I hear there are lots of vacancies so presume this is not considered to be a good choice.
Is working in London much worse than working elsewhere for instance?
My dc was thinking about doing medicine but is reconsidering because of the worries about doing medicine in that you can get sued, people could make a complaint about you, you have to study all through your career, pay alot of money to do exams and then not really get paid enough to afford to live easily particularly considering the many years of study and lifestyle sacrifices that have to be made.
TF

[DeoGratias]

My sons have a friend whose sibling is studying medicine abroad but that's because the sibling didn't get the grades to study it in the UK and we all know that although it could still be a route into the UK later if there is a shortage here in the UK of doctors at certain time when that person might be trying to get work back home.

Even the on calls annoy me with doctors - they seem to think it's work! whereas a lawyer working 24 hours without a break is actually working all that time, not sitting waiting to be called out which is a totally different thing. There is something about some doctors and teachers which means they always think they are very hard done by - I suspect it is somehow linked to working for the state, a kind of socialist mentality really.

(In our family we just about got all As at A level whether we are doctors or lawyers and that was back 30 years ago. Now daughter 1 and I might well debate if my AAB and hers are identical (there were no A* when she did A levels) and if her twin brothers get similar next year that 13 years on will be comparable but there is little point in that debate. It remains the case that if you got As years ago and get As today in good subjects at A levels you are doing pretty well.)

[cleanmachine]

My nephew is studying medicine and sadly most of his cohort are looking for jobs abroad, Australia and dubai seem very popular. He is one of the few in his group who intends on staying and working in the UK. He finds it really odd that on the one hand he has many friends off to utilise their UK degrees abroad and then has friends who didn't get into UK unis and went to Bulgaria, Italy, Romania to study med and are now trying hard to come back and work in the UK. I think everything from the university courses and places to the structures supporting this profession need to be looked at. All our Dr's seem to be disheartened or abroad, or coming in having studied abroad.

[bojorojo]

I do have difficulty with doctors receiving a very expensive training in the Uk, and a guarantee of a job, and then wanting to work abroad. It is a kick in the teeth really and very self-centred. The courses cost more than any of them pay in loans. They will end up with a decent salary and that goes a long way in some cities. They end uo with better paid jobs than many graduates. I cannot understand why they think it is OK to accept everything the NHS has given them and not want to give anything back, other than the work they do whilst training. Surely this is not fair on other students who get far less teaching and still pay the same fees and subsidise expensive courses for the good of us all? I do not object to this, but I do think doctors should work here for some years after qualifying or maybe pay full fees if they want to escape?

[MedSchoolRat]

Sat on my hands about this thread for a few days now...

DD is interested in medicine (or law). Medic colleague quipped "Can't you talk her out of it?!" But gosh people love to moan. According to MN, no doctor, teacher, lawyer, social worker, university academic or nurse is ever happy in their job.

Except sometimes they DO love their jobs.

Must set expectations accordingly, though. I told DD if she's a doctor or nurse she'll be set up as a saint, but lawyer or banker she'll be vilified as a parasite. All mean long hours & hard work & plenty of moments when you feel shat upon. In medical school interviews we prioritise kids who have staying power. The motivation has to be as genuine & firm as possible to have a chance of getting in & staying in.

[squidgyapple]

los inmiddlemarch BBC grades in the past would probably be equivalent of 3 As nowadays

I have to say I agree this is probably true. At our nearest uni you need BBB to get on their nursing degree courses - this was certainly not the case back in the late 80s when I was applying for uni.

[SnuffleGruntSnorter]

bojo do you not think a more sustainable long term solution would be to make conditions here tolerable for our home grown doctors instead of forcing them to stay until they burn out?

[cruusshed]

He finds it really odd that on the one hand he has many friends off to utilise their UK degrees abroad and then has friends who didn't get into UK unis and went to

What's to stop those who achieved their degree in Bulgaria etc from opting to work in australia or dubai also?

Also nosy to know what grades will get you on a med course in Bulgaria etc?

[lostinmiddlemarch]

Do doctors who have been trained here (and therefore had a huge reduction on what they would have paid for their education elsewhere) feel that it's fair to set off for, say, Australia, straight after graduation? Or after two or three years?

[Sagethyme]

If you want to help people, go into one of the allied health professions, all the fun and reward of medicine without the aggravation, risks, debt

Errm NO, sorry AHPs suffer from stress, the pay for level of responsibility is poor, and we have no proctection from the likes of the GMC. Just look at the HPC website to see how AHPs get screwed over! As for it being fun? Absoultly not, oh and 7 day working is already implemented by some trusts and on its way for others. Basically if you want to work with people do it privately or find another career as working in NHS or teaching is just fucking stressful with very little if any reward....its changed alot in the 20 years i've been working, and sadly not for the better.

[bojorojo]

So many talk about doing it, lost, they must be able to go pretty quickly. I feel staying here for a couple of years is a bit light really and I do not think it is fair to the general public or indeed to the NHS or their colleagues. I think conditions are tolerable, but would agree, not brilliant. It has always been a career that is a way of life. Many young teachers are working 80 hours a week and unless you become a Deputy Head or Head, salaries are not anywhere near doctors' salaries. Other professions work long and hard too and doctors have a great deal more money on offer down the road than some. Far more opportunities to be part time too whichcansuit lots of doctors.

Lots of law degree holders never get training contracts. They fail to become lawyers. Doctors actually get the job they wanted to do albeit not necessarily where they wanted to do it. There is great value in that.

It still is odd though, that doctors trained abroad do want to work here whilst some of our home trained ones do not. Why is that? Do they not suffer burn out? Look at the working hours for trainees in the city and see how many people give up on that because of burn out. My GPs have been around for years. Some are well into their 60s and have not retired. They seem to like their jobs. They own fabulous houses. They have massive pensions. If you want something good in the end, there is often a price to pay earlier.

[cleanmachine]

Cruusshed - there's nothing stopping medics who trained in Europe from working abroad. But I think a UK medical degree increases employability and the UK degrees are works recognised and respected. I assume that's why those studying in romania/bulgaria/China really want to come back and work in the UK to get the UK stamp on their career passport.

[tropicalfish]

It would be great if some doctors would say if they recommended a career in medicine and how they made it work etc?
Thanks to all the non doctors that said they recommended it.

[Goingtobefree]

Let's put it like this.. NHS has benefited a lot from overseas doctors, often from poor countries, which trained their bright young people with the hope they will serve their respective country.

[smileyhappymummy]

I think the key is probably to think very carefully and realistically about the speciality that you pick. It's important to realise what your own personal biggest stressors are and to tailor your speciality choice to that. So, I think I probably underestimated the degree to which I find uncertainty hard, and how much I struggle with time pressure that means I can't always do the best I can for people. I'm good at communicating with people and fairly resilient in the face of difficult news. So, I do some hospice work as well as GP and I do really enjoy that.
I would also go into it right from the start thinking about quality of life as well as career and how that could be maximised, be it picking a less competitive speciality so I had some choice about where I trained, or strongly considering less than full time working.
It is still an amazing job at times - just that the stresses at times can be utterly intolerable and (speaking from experience) the money just doesn't make up for that.

[PurpleDaisies]

I'm an ex doctor. I wouldn't recommend it for all the reasons that everyone else has said. I loved the training but the job is a nightmare if you want any sort of life. The uncertainly in where you will be living and working goes on for years and years. If you're in a big deanery can be allocated jobs two hours away with very little possibility of changing. That's not even thinking about seeing patients put at risk because there just aren't enough staff to look after them properly.

Don't do it.

[SnuffleGruntSnorter]

What do you do now, Purple Daisies? Are you happy?

[PurpleDaisies]

Science teacher (currently private tutoring after glandular fever) and I love it. It was a hard decision to make but life's too short to dread going to work every day. At last count 40% of my year are abroad or doing other things now.

[whatwouldrondo]

I was very relieved my DD decided that whilst she would like to study the science involved in being a doctor she wouldn't like having to deal with the patients (never mind being held to ransome by the government. She is now happily doing the former, a first in MSci and progressing her research career in a specialism she is fascinated by. There is much much more to Science than medicine. Who knows maybe she will even make millions from her research as her friend's father has done? Having established a business based to manufacture a product based on his research, he sold it for £30m .

[Molio]

Some kids like the idea of people as well as science though ron and aren't motivated primarily by money.

[tropicalfish]

someone earlier mentioned doctors working silly shifts, which never used to happen before. How long would that be?
It must be really tough, travelling to and from work, perhaps commuting or driving for over an hour to do that.
smileyhappymummy, thank you for your thoughtful advice. Did you say you went to Oxbridge to do medicine, what did you think of doing it here in terms of preparing you for working as a doctor? It sounds like you're doing a brilliant job. I think that basically there are some unknown unknowns and certainly with the time that you have to determine these ,you succeed as well as anyone would. We need more great GPs like you. I understand where you're coming from as I like to be exact and precise and have a full understanding of a scenario before making a decision.

[disquit2]

Some kids like the idea of people as well as science though ron and aren't motivated primarily by money.

I think it would be a pretty bad idea to go into science research for money. The number of people who earn millions is tiny. Most of us work very long hours for not much money, and have to spend years on temporary research contracts before getting permanent (open ended contract) positions. There is also a huge amount of pressure to get big results, so as to get the next position or grant or investment.

[Kr1stina]

someone earlier mentioned doctors working silly shifts, which never used to happen before

Really, when was that ?

as I like to be exact and precise and have a full understanding of a scenario before making a decision

In that case I think you ( and your child if they are like you ) are going to have a problem applying for medicine . It's a complex job in which there are many factors outside your control and you rarely have all the information.

It's unwise to go into a job which doesn't fit your personality . You can learn new skills but you can't change who you are.

I think that you are looking for some kind of answer on this thread. You want x number of people to post and say " I am a consultant anaesthetist, it's the best speciality, I make y amount of money and work Z hours per week " .

I could post this, as I have two friends who do that part time. But it won't help your child address the concerns you raised in your OP. It's a very diverse profession and it's changed dramatically and will go on changing .

Your child will be working as a junior doctor 7 or 8 years from now. It won't be the same as someone on this thread who was a house officer in the 1980s. I don't think anyone can give your the certainty and guarantees that I think you are looking for .

I wish your child every success in their future plans

[SnuffleGruntSnorter]

Very well said, Kr1stina

[DeoGratias]

It's the opposite - older doctors are very worried that the shorter hours doctors now work mean that after 2 or 3 years they have half the number of hours they used to have at that stage. No one is suggesting doctors these days work longer hours than hospital doctors of old. Even my father in the 1950s working in a hospital in the NHS worked hours which I don't think are the norm these days.

[Molio]

Which is it? Do hospital doctors really work fewer hours these days?