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Guest post: “Now we know that our understanding of diabetes is wrong”

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MumsnetGuestPosts · 14/02/2020 10:56

Type 2 diabetes has long been regarded as a life-long condition that steadily gets worse, always needing more and more tablets and eventual insulin injections. It is widely regarded as being caused by obesity.

Gestational diabetes, on the other hand, is believed to just disappear after pregnancy.

Now we know that all these ideas are wrong. Let’s look at them one at a time.

Life-long and inevitably progressive?

Since the late 1970s, I have been listening to my patients with type 2 diabetes and trying to understand exactly what was going wrong.

We studied each kind of tissue in turn – fat, muscle and liver. But then we had the opportunity to be able to look at what was happening in all three of them at the same time by using a powerful MRI scanner. Our early studies showed that too much fat in the wrong place caused problems with controlling glucose. We also learned that, after bariatric surgery, sugar levels returned to normal within days. Bingo!

As such, I was able to explain type 2 diabetes – in theory. That was 2006, and since then we have been steadily testing each bit of what I like to call the ‘Twin Cycle Hypothesis’. We have since proven that those cycles can be made to spin in the reverse direction – by losing about two-and-a-half stone in weight.

To do the studies, we needed a way of helping people lose that amount of weight. But, by that time, I knew why people found weight loss very difficult – the diet had to be an unexacting daily decision, cause little in the way of hunger and be followed for a short period of time only. Those early studies gave dramatic results.

In a recent study, I teamed up with Professor Mike Lean of Glasgow University to test this approach used by practice nurses (or dietitians) in Primary Care. Over two years, one in three people lost enough weight and kept it off. This meant that over one third of patients had become non-diabetic, no longer having to take any diabetes tablets at all.

Caused by ‘obesity’?

Obesity has a strict definition: a body mass index (BMI) of over 30. At the time type 2 diabetes is diagnosed, however, one in two people have a BMI of under 30. One in 10 have a BMI in the ‘normal’ range of less than 25.

Our studies show that if people who happen to have a very high BMI lose the same amount of weight (two-and-a-half stone) as those who aren’t considered ‘obese’, they can still become non-diabetic.

Ultimately, obesity does not cause type 2 diabetes. We have shown that it is, in fact, caused by around half a gram of excess fat inside the cells of the pancreas. Stored under the skin, fat is safe even though it may not be a welcomed sight to its owner.

Some people have a very low threshold for letting fat be stored outside what we call the ‘safe depots’. They might get type 2 diabetes at a BMI of 23. Other people have a higher threshold for letting fat build up in the wrong place.

As such, we should be talking about Personal Fat Thresholds instead. A person with true type 2 diabetes is carrying more fat than they can cope with metabolically – whatever their BMI. Pre-disposition therefore plays a large role in determining whether or not you might get the condition.

But beware of two things. Firstly, not all diabetes is type 2. Sometimes, type 1 diabetes (nothing to do with fat) can come on slowly in adult life and at first be confused with type 2. There are also rarer forms of diabetes. Secondly, a demographic time bomb is ticking: so many children are carrying more fat than is good for them and get to their early 20s already too heavy. They may get type 2 diabetes even without increasing weight in adult life.

Gestational diabetes forgotten after pregnancy?

Women who have raised blood sugar levels in pregnancy have an increased chance of getting type 2 diabetes in the future. The higher risks of heart trouble can kick in even before the slowly developing type 2 diabetes is recognised. Even more pressing is the fact that there is a much higher chance of diabetes in a subsequent pregnancy.

Our research has shown that in pregnancy when gestational diabetes has been picked up, very modest calorie restriction can avoid the need for tablets or insulin. Research now underway is gathering more detail about this approach.

We know for certain that losing weight before pregnancy results in a much lower chance of a baby being exposed to high sugars. There is very clear information about how the risk of all kinds of trouble in pregnancy and delivery rises with higher body weights and this applies especially to women who have had gestational diabetes.

The importance of getting down to your fittest weight in preparing for a pregnancy has not yet been empathized enough.

Professor Roy Taylor will be returning to this guest post to answer some user questions on Tuesday 18 February at 3pm.

The author is donating 100% of his proceeds from this book to Diabetes UK.

Life Without Diabetes is available on Amazon (RRP £9.99)

OP posts:
BovaryX · 18/02/2020 15:42

What advice would you give to a type 1 who is not overweight in terms of diabetic management?What do you see as the major differences between type 1 and type 2?

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 15:44

@toomanypillows

To those asking 'how', this is what I did : I went on a low carb and low calorie diet and increased my exercise. Within three months my hba1c had reduced from 55 to 35. I've had two more hba1c tests of 33 and 39 (all in the normal range) I lost 3 stones initially. I still have more to lose, but my diabetes nurse said that whilst I am in remission, they will only consider it reversed if my bmi is below 25 and I am still in the 30s on my hba1c.

My low carb diet basically identifies a portion of carbs as (for example) 20g rolled oats, one slice sourdough bread, half wholemeal pitta bread.
I have three portions of carbs a day.

Dear toomanypillows,
Very well done. The critical thing is that you found a way that allowed you to lose 3 stone. Different individuals suit different methods of slower weight loss, and you describe one good possibility. in the book Life Without Diabetes I describe a few others that have good evidence behind them.
Keep up the great work.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 15:50

@Grasspigeons

Hi - i had gestational diabetes in my second pregnancy. The weight thing interests me as i had a very healthy BMI going into the pregnancy. I am 5ft 5 and weighed just under 9st. The day after i gave birth i weight 8st 7lb so actually lost weight during the pregnancy. I suppose i am asking does that mean my personal threshold is very low? . I am now 10st 7lb - i keep getting tested for ytpe 2 and my gp says not if when. So what is the best weigh to delay the onset?

Dear Grasspigeons,
This is an incredibly important topic. My work in running a medical obstetric clinic brought me hard up against this problem. In fact the statistical risk of you developing diabetes soon is not huge (around 50% at 10 years after pregnancy). But it is very wise to react to the writing on the wall. In so doing you improve your heart health and decrease the risk of all cardiovascular problems and weight related cancers.
Once again, you should consider whether you have put on weight since early adult life. If so, aim to get back to a few kilograms of that - provided that you can live happily at that weight and keep it steady. If not, settle for an in-between weight. In any case, do lose some weight from you r present level. Also make sure that you have some physical activity in your everyday life.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 15:59

@Oblomov20

This article is so incredibly disappointing. It's so flimsy and says nothing of value. Where's the detail? Is this the best we've got?

Type 1 all my life here. I know 6 type 2's for whom weight loss has NOT reversed.

I might investigate and post again with an actual question to Proff Roy Taylor, for whom I normally have respect.

Dear Oblomov20,
Sorry!
The brief overview could not include all the evidence. This is available to all to read via the website (go.ncl.ac.uk/diabetes-reversal) and is expanded in the book Life without Diabetes. The hard scientific details has been published in the leading scientific journals as listed.
It is important to point out what is explained in both book and website, that type 2 diabetes becomes steadily less likely to be reversed completely by weight loss as the years go by. The chance is around 9/10 in the first 6 years and down to around 5/10 by 10 years. However, it is never too late to try, and I have two people who reversed completely after 24 years of disease. There is clearly an individual 'resilience' of the insulin producing cells in that some people's can withstand suppression for a couple of decades, whereas those of other people may not be able to return to normal after only a few years of stress formt he local fat inside the pancreas.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:02

@Onceuponatimethen

Lady, this is what my oh has done so far:

He has given up alcohol (very high proportion of dietary sugar intake = alcohol)

He has started doing a walk every lunch time (aims for 10,000 steps daily but doesn’t always make it)

Stopped buying certain habitual things he’s always eaten a lot of - caramel popcorn etc

We’ve stopped going to McDonald’s as a family

He’s lost just under a stone so far

Dear Onceuponatimethen,
Keep going! It is really important to have the target weight in mind. And I learn from my patients and research participants that it is more likely to be achieved if the whole family does what you describe - joining in with the behaviour change. This is important, not least as type 2 diabetes is a family business.
Then when target is achieved, a new slightly different set of rules needs to be agreed to ensure that the weight does not creep on again longterm.

Grasspigeons · 18/02/2020 16:04

@ProfessorRoyTaylor - can i just clarify. A 50% increase in risk or a 50% chance of developing diabetes? Ie 1 in 2

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:06

@LadyGAgain

I'm interested in the HOW. How do I lose the 2.5 stone and keep it off?

Dear LadyGAgain,
Easiest way - follow the advice on the website (gp.ncl.ac.uk/diabetes-reversal) or in the book Life Without Diabetes for a time-restricted, rapid weight loss.
Or:
Follow any pattern of restricted eating that suits you personally. Motivation and continued determination is the key. So write down your reasons for starting on the weight loss in the first place and keep them for reference on dark days.
Very best wishes for success.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:14

@Silvercatowner

I really wish this post specified ' type 2' in the title. OH is type 1 and it's awful. My hopes were slightly raised by the thread title.

Dear Silvercatowner,
Apologies.
It is so important to distinguish between the 2 commonest types of diabetes. Type 1, which is absolutely nothing to do with overweight or 'eating the wrong things' is a cataclysmic condition. Although 90% of people with diabetes have type 2, my professional life has been devoted 90% to type 1.
The balance has to be struck between overmuch detail in brief headlines and precise description. Hence the explanatory subtitle on the cover of my book which is indeed entitled 'Life Without Diabetes'. Just in passing, I'd mention that this main title was meant to refer to the usual way in which healthy people handle their food as this has received almost no attention.
I try to emphasise this point about the work concerning type 2 diabetes in media interviews.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:23

@Onceuponatimethen

Fascinating - currently supporting dp with a massive family history of type 2 diabetes to lose weight

Dear Onceuponatimethen
All power to your elbow. It is so important to act on the message of rthe family - and the children in particular. It is so easy to assume that a child is of normal wieght because they look similar to others of the same age. Sadly, now on third of children are overweight, so looking like others is not necesaarily a good guide. Look at the school pictures of your class at primary school - and you will see the problem. To help them start adult life without the type 2 diabetes already percolating silently, family action is needed.
What can parents do? Parenting is difficult enough already. Well, avoiding high calorie snacks is a sound first step. Do not fall for the marketing pressures about 'energy gaps' or needing sustenance. Their bodies are so good at this.
Also - when you hear "I'm hungry" remember to recognise the difference between true hunger (usually if a small prior meal or a day of continuous physical activity) and boredom. For the latter, parental distraction therapy is healthier in the long run! But I do not underestimate the challenge of sound parenting.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/02/2020 16:24

@ProfessorRoyTaylor

I was very impressed by your research and your success rate in reversing T2
(I'm very interested in intermittent fasting, so I read a lot of related literature)

iirc, your latest human trial was of 5,000 people which is pretty large-scale compared to most I've read

Do you plan to follow up their progress over the next 5 / 10 years, whether the T2 and / or significant weight returns ?

Do you plan additional large studies ?

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:27

@gassylady

It’s great to see you on here getting the opportunity to share you research results. These have done so much to change the way type 2 diabetes will be viewed and managed in the future. I have managed to lose 15kg in the last year to reduce my chances of developing the disease and found your work inspirational. Many thanks A doctor who was taught all about the inevitable progressive nature of T2DM whilst at medical school in the mid 1980s !!

Dear gassylady,
Thank you!
I hope to overturn the established medical beliefs of many doctors, taught as you describe, by educating the wider public! Hence part of the reason for writing the recent book.
Medical beliefs have to change slowly to ensure that sound information underpins these. I think we are at the tipping point.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:32

@BovaryX

Is it true that 80 per cent of type 2 diabetics are obese at the point of diagnosis? Type 1 diabetics constitute 10 per cent of the total of diabetics. The conditions are often conflated and confused. How can they be differentiated?

Dear BovaryX,
This misleading conflating of type 2 diabetes with 'obesity' is very damaging to understanding. In fact, in the UK only 50% of people developing type 2 diabetes are obese (ie BMI over 30) at the time of diagnosis. 40% are overweight (BMI 225-30) and 10% are of 'normal' BMI.
As explained in other replies, a person can have a BMI in the official normal range and yet be too heavy for their own constitution.
I published the Personal Fat Threshold concept to help set the record straight and the explain the underlying reasons.

And yes, type 1 and type 2 diabetes are often confused. Type 1 has nothing to do with weight control (although may cause severe weight loss before it is diagnosed and insulin started).

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:42

@hamstersarse

This seems a little basic compared to the work that Dr David Unwin does in reversing diabetes

You make no mention of how to lose weight? Or why blood sugar may be raised?

Dear hamstersarse,
Sorry - the brief article above was meant to draw attention to the problem, and all the detail on how-to-do-it is both freely available on the website go.ncl.ac.uk/diabetes-reversal or in the book Life Without Diabetes.
In one sense my work is indeed basic. It has elucidated the exact cause of type 2 diabetes and clarified the confusing mass of science which was focussing on details of theoretical mechanisms. We now understand the nature of type 2 diabetes. As a fortunate effect of this scientific thrust, it is possible to explain how type 2 diabetes may be dispelled by an individual, It empowers people with the condition.
Dr David Unwin has done a great job. At an early stage he came to me for assistance with handling his data, and we remain in touch. The approach of low carb is reasonable, but from our data, it is not so likely to be successful in achieving 15 kg weight loss and complete remission of type 2 diabetes.
There are more than one ways of skinning the cat (excuse this old saying) and the use fo magnetic resonance with metabolic studies has sorted out the cause of type 2 diabetes.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:46

@Onceuponatimethen

Blimey that sounds intense!!

Dear Onceuponatimethen,
Yes, it is indeed.
However, life looks different when you are staring down the barrel of a gun. Type 2 diabetes is a desperate disease with huge risks to health and happiness. People tell me that being told of the diagnosis is like a hammerblow.
if you were told by your doctor that you had a dread disease - but an operation could restore you to health, then you would arrange for admission to hospital, recuperation and dropping out of routine life for a while. So the drastic nature is justified by the potential return.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 16:54

@BigChocFrenzy

For those interested in the HOW Prof Taylor proposed a v strict diet to reverse T2:

A VLCD of 8 weeks on 800 cals per day,
normally composed of 600 cals shakes plus 200 cals non-starchy veg

This was based on what he found had already started to reverse T2 for some patients preparing for bariatric surgery

He carried out human trials on this, first at Newcastle Uni Hospital and most recently a large scale trial with the NHS

Scientific Papers:

[[https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/banting-memorial-lecture.pdf]]

[[https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/Web%20list%20of%20reversal%20publ.pdf]]

btw, this 800 cal VLCD is what Michael Mosely's low carb BSD / Fast800 is based on,but Mosely uses food rather than shakes
Many on the Intermittent Fasting / 5:2 threads have had success with this

I don't know if Prof Taylor has also moved towards recommending solid food for wider public use ?
Or any other modifications ?

Dear BigChocFrenzy,
Addendum to my previous reply. I omitted to comment on the real food option.
Yes, for people who want to do this and are able to put in the time and effort, yes, this is the preferred option, as discussed on the website. It is challenging to achieve complete nutrition using ordinary food at an intake of 800kcal/day, so a multivitamin pill daily in addition is advised. All described on website and in book. Also, this is what the Hairy Bikers did to achieve weight loss a few years ago with some advice from my team, and their 'Hairy Dieters Cookbook' has received excellent rating from many people who have reported their personal stories to me.
However, for a population approach the low calorie liquid diet wins hands down in terms of proportion of people able to do it. In planning the NHS England Pilot scheme to roll out a type 2 diabetes reversal programme, this was intensively discussed by a panel of experts. There was unanimous agreement that the 'shakes' were the way to go.

ProfessorRoyTaylor · 18/02/2020 17:09

I do hope that the replies above are useful for some people. This is such a crucial matter for personal health and for the NHS. We have barely scratched the surface, but the information is now widely available. Do remember that this is information rather than personal medical advice, and for people already under medical attention it is wise to seek personal advice before making changes especially to medication.
I would finish by saying that for those with a family member with type 2 diabetes, there is a message for the whole family.
Best wishes for future health - and happiness
Roy Taylor

BigChocFrenzy · 18/02/2020 17:11

Very interesting Webchat, thank you Smile

Onceuponatimethen · 18/02/2020 18:24

Thank you so much for this - really interesting and I’ve read out the replies to my other half who is now even more motivated

I’m giving up alcohol etc with him and would say I agree that has really helped

FelicityFebruary · 18/02/2020 20:49

Thanks for this.

mammmamia · 19/02/2020 20:10

Thank you for your replies.

Lockinsond · 23/02/2020 10:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Onceuponatimethen · 23/02/2020 11:53

Reported the spammer above

Onceuponatimethen · 23/02/2020 11:53

I’m now part way through Prof Taylor’s book - totally fascinating

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2020 12:34

I've read the book on Kindle, really informative

Onceuponatimethen · 23/02/2020 12:55

My oh is getting interested - I’m thinking we may try a modified version of the diet together. Oh has already lost a stone from BMI around 30 I reckon. Now just into overweight rather than obese!!