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Guest post: "The sex trade can never be made 'safe'"

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MumsnetGuestPosts · 07/07/2016 15:44

Recent decades have witnessed an unprecedented expansion of the sex trade. During the 1990s the number of UK men who pay for sex almost doubled, between 1997 and 2011 the number of lap dancing clubs increased tenfold, and a recent BBC survey revealed almost a quarter of young people have watched pornography by the time they reach their teens. So what should we do?

Nothing - is the answer implied by common descriptions of the sex trade. If prostitution is "the world's oldest profession" and "will always exist", as the Economist assures us, why bother trying to curb it? If porn is "fantasy", and not "real sex", like the online advice guide for young people The Site bills it, where's the need? And if groups such as Open Society Foundations (OSF) are right and selling sex is simply work - "sex work" - then aren't men who pay for sex just regular consumers, their growth in number no cause for concern?

These relaxed takes on the burgeoning business of prostitution do allow room for a bit of tinkering around the edges, mind you. For instance, governments ought to "[promote] safe working conditions" for women in prostitution, according to OSF. Their policy prescription? So-called 'full decriminalisation'. That involves making brothel-keeping and pimping legal, and removing any specific laws restricting the sex trade's operations. One of their exemplar states - New Zealand - has produced a health and safety guide for brothels.

But responses like these rely on a fatalistic acceptance of continuing demand for the sex trade. They presuppose it can be made safe. And they require us to buy in to the belief that a society that sanctions the sex trade can also be a society committed to securing equality between women and men.

It can't. The sex trade can never be made 'safe'.

At the core of this enterprise is a very simple product concept: a person (usually a man) can pay to sexually access the body of someone (usually a woman) who does not freely want to have sex with him; otherwise he wouldn't have to pay her to be there. This is not a regular consumer transaction, this is sexual abuse. The buyer's disregard for mutuality, and ability to treat another person as a sexual object, are fundamental to the act. It is, as activist and prostitution survivor Diane Martin CBE calls it, "violence against women". Responses to the sex trade which have attempted to skirt over this inherent harm, to sanction it as legitimate business in a bid to quash attendant harms, haven't just failed - they've made it worse.

Germany, which took the decision to legalise prostitution in 2001, is now home to a chain of 'mega-brothels' and a sex trade worth 16 billion euros annually. The result has led Helmut Sporer, Detective Chief Superintendent of the Crimes Squad in Augsburg, to dub his country "the El Dorado for pimps". The Netherlands legalised prostitution in 2000 in a bid to "purge it of criminal peripheral phenomena". Yet in 2008 the national police force reported that between 50%-90% of women in the trade "work involuntarily". Researchers at VU University Amsterdam concluded, "the regulation has hidden the legalised sector from the view of the criminal justice system, while human trafficking still thrives behind the legal façade of a legalised prostitution sector. Brothels can even function as legalised outlets for victims of sex trafficking". Indeed, research shows that countries in which prostitution is completely legal experience significantly higher rates of trafficking.

Demand for the sex trade is not inevitable. The sexist attitudes of entitlement that underpin it can be tackled. But that won't be achieved by state sanctioning this exploitative practice in a hopeless bid to contain the dangers associated with it. Sexual consent is not a commodity; sexual abuse can never be made 'safe'.

If we are serious about wanting equality between women and men, then we have to work to end commercial sexual exploitation. As Diane Martin CBE says, "We should be creating the most hostile environment on both a social and legal level for those who sell, control, exploit, pay for and benefit financially from the sale of the bodies of women". That means adopting 'end demand' measures like the Sex Buyer Law - which criminalises paying for sex but decriminalises selling sex, providing support services for people exploited through prostitution.

Crucially, it also means dispelling myths that provide cover for the industry - and justification for its users. Myths like 'demand is inevitable', 'selling sex is regular work', and 'fully decriminalising the industry makes women safe'. Because without these myths to hide behind, the sexist core of this trade becomes clear - and so does our ability to bring about change.

Pimp State: Sex, Money and the Future of Equality by Kat Banyard is out now (Faber & Faber, £12.99).

Read Laura Lee's post here.

OP posts:
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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 21:43

OlennasWimple

I think you will find that it is best to base factual evidence for policy entirely on those who know something about it, and exclude those who are only in a position to make things up. Due to the clandestine nature of sex work that restricts it to sex workers.

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 21:47

LurcioAgain

I think you're confusing verbal disagreement with actual attack.

Not at all, definitely deliberate psychological violence as part of a pattern of psychological violence that goes back several years on these boards, and is quite notorious, and not in a good way.

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sillage · 11/07/2016 21:52

Pornography is the most transparent of all sex industry operations, legal or otherwise. But you don't think the women in pornography are sex workers and you don't consider the production of pornography a part of the sex industry. Okay.

You might be my favorite accidental abolitionist, Gaye, although I'll admit at this point I feel like I'm speaking with a very mentally traumatized person who can't help themselves from lashing out irrationally at people.

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LurcioAgain · 11/07/2016 21:53

I realise it's fashionable on tumblr and twitter and other social media to pretend that people holding dissenting views are committing "acts of violence", but really, this is not the case. I happen to think that prostitution harms both a substantial number of the women involved in it (and yes, I have talked to prostitutes about their experiences) and also harms women in wider society, by creating a society where a substantial minority of men are encouraged to think of women as nothing more than disposable fuck toys (for clarity, I am talking about how these men view women, as is amply evidenced in their own words taken from sites such as punternet, not my view of women). Furthermore, there are women in prostitution who are being murdered - by men - for instance, Daria Pionko, murdered in a supposedly "safe zone" of the sort you are advocating for.

For you to accuse me of "psychological violence" for expressing the political opinion that women as a whole and many prostitutes would be better off without legalised prostitution is nothing short of disgraceful. Shame on you for your crude attempts at silencing.

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DetestableHerytike · 11/07/2016 22:09

"Don't be ridiculous, this whole thread is a feminist attack on sex workers for starters and any fool can see that for themselves."

Hmm. Well, you might think that's what 'any fool' can see; I'm less convinced that you are doing your case any favours at all!

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 22:32

Sillage

Pornography is the most transparent of all sex industry operations, legal or otherwise. But you don't think the women in pornography are sex workers and you don't consider the production of pornography a part of the sex industry. Okay.

No actually I think the score is 15 : love...

Heckova straw man there...wasn't supposed to notice.

I didn't say anything about women in pornography one way or the other...so don't attribute it to me please!

(What did I say to suggest I was intellectually disabled enough to believe that isn't deliberate psychological attack?)

It goes downhill from there...

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FloraFox · 11/07/2016 22:43

My view is that from a political perspective, I cannot agree with commodification of women's bodies. I agree with Lass that it degrades society. I don't need any evidence for this as it is a political and moral viewpoint.

I would be prepared to accept decriminalisation or legalisation if there was credible evidence that this reduces harm for women in prostitution. But there isn't any. It's all highly suspect and colours by the views of the researcher.

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 22:52

LurcioAgain

Let me show you how to translate that from attack into discussion form:

I happen to think that prostitution harms both a substantial number of the women involved in it (and yes, I have talked to prostitutes about their experiences)

Oh really? Well I was a sex worker (I find the term "prostitute" incredibly offensive, so if you don't mind...) and I can assure you you are mistaken

Oh! (Sorry, I did not mean offence) You obviously know the situation better than me so why do you say that? (Whenever I come across someone who knows something better than I do I use it as a chance to learn and upgrade my own knowledge before re-examining any opinions I might hold.)

{Insert 50,000 word Gaye sermon}...you were saying something about harming women in the wider society...how do you see that?

For you to accuse me of "psychological violence" for expressing the political opinion that women as a whole and many prostitutes would be better off without legalised prostitution is nothing short of disgraceful. Shame on you for your crude attempts at silencing.

Nice try on...but it's not even in the county of true, is it? You are still firmly planted in "psychological violence you are CONVINCED you will eventually succeed in gaslighting me into not noticing...

However, if you were capable of true discussion, I, or even perhaps we together might by now arrived at the crux of a very important matter, regardless of how you want to quantify it.

If you abolish sex work (not possible anyway) a man who is capable of rape, murder whatever (illegal in their own right) is still going to be the same man, raping and murdering women somewhere else (as a lot of men do already!), so you are just moving any violence that might have been inflicted on sex workers to women somewhere else.

When a person abuses another person the abuser is 100% to blame, there is no other factor...Ted Bundy wouldn't have been "just a nice cute guy" if someone had managed to find a way to abolish sex work in the 1940s!

The one question you NEVER ask anyone is "What will happen to the sex workers and their families"

That isn't dehumanisation, it is ERASURE.

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 22:55

DetestableHerytike

Hmm. Well, you might think that's what 'any fool' can see; I'm less convinced that you are doing your case any favours at all!

WHAT ON EARTH did I ever say to give you the idea I am stupid enough to try and make any kind of "case" to the notorious Mumsnet Abolitionist Harpies?

It would make more sense to take myself off to Raqqa and sell bikinis to ISIS!

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 11/07/2016 23:01

Oh really? Well I was a sex worker (I find the term "prostitute" incredibly offensive, so if you don't mind...) and I can assure you you are mistaken

Here is the dictionary definition of prostitute.

a person, typically a woman, who engages in sexual activity for payment

I am not going to play your little game of semantics so you can pretend "engaging in sexual activity for payment" is just a job , like any other.

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 23:03

FloraFox

I would be prepared to accept decriminalisation or legalisation if there was credible evidence that this reduces harm for women in prostitution. But there isn't any. It's all highly suspect and colours by the views of the researcher.

If you didn't automatically attack and dismiss anyone who disagrees with your preformed ideas you might be getting somewhere.

Tell what, let's see what the UK Dept promised research comes up with.

My view is that from a political perspective, I cannot agree with commodification of women's bodies. I agree with Lass that it degrades society. I don't need any evidence for this as it is a political and moral viewpoint.

Fine, but I don't believe criminal legislation should ever deliberately damage the welfare of others to serve a subjective moral or political viewpoint...that road lies beheading people for saying evening prayer 10 minutes late.

Think about it, you destroy somebody's last option and drive them to suicide they will be just as dead as if you beheaded and crucified them all over youtube...the only difference is that they will probably have suffered a great deal more before it was over.

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 23:07

LassWiTheDelicateAir

It is not a "little game of semantics" that's your territory, it is the simple courtesy we show to others as a baseline of equality and respect...same as if you gave me breakfast and I said "I find meat incredibly offensive, could you please keep it off my plate"

Pure truth is, you think sex workers need to be trained to accept that they are unworthy of the simple courtesy that shows respect between equals.

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FloraFox · 11/07/2016 23:20

Gaye it's not their last option. As you've said, they could sell their body parts or rent their womb, according to you.

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GayeDalton · 11/07/2016 23:52

Flora

it's not their last option. As you've said, they could sell their body parts or rent their womb, according to you.

...and do you have contact details for the placers they could do these things? Thought not...chances are they don't either...

So that's that...

Besides, it is always considered wiser to earn money than to sell off non-renewable resources like organs if at all possible...

...and renting a womb is not always viable, for instance I have that vomiting thing Kate Middleton gets...can be 4 or 5 months in bed (which is euphemism for "hanging over a bucket") hardly a state in which a person could sort out their life...and I have severe oxytocin disregulation, nobody had a clue what would happen if I got pregnant again, but the odds were "not good", my cousin had a prolapse that meant she would miscarry any child she conceived, which could be construed as a bit of a scam in context...

...OOOPS!!! There's me going on when you were just being vicious and facetious...

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/07/2016 00:17

It is not a "little game of semantics" that's your territory, it is the simple courtesy we show to others as a baseline of equality and respect...same as if you gave me breakfast and I said "I find meat incredibly offensive, could you please keep it off my plate"

Another utterly irrelevant and illogical comparison. It is you playing semantics as you are so desperate to pretend what you do is a legitimate job.

Clearly not every one in your "profession" shares your sensibilities.

English Collective of Prostitutes - prostitutescollective
prostitutescollective.net/

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/07/2016 00:22

Pure truth is, you think sex workers need to be trained to accept that they are unworthy of the simple courtesy that shows respect between equals

Oh what nonsense. I refuse to go along with your attempts to dress prostitution up as being anything other than degrading and debasing.

I would hang my head in shame if my son ever became a punter. If I had a daughter I would have failed her if she ever resorted to prostitution.

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OlennasWimple · 12/07/2016 00:26

Gaye - I think policy is best made when it takes into account a wide range of views. This includes experts (including academics), those with first hand knowledge and experience of the issue, and those who speak more generally. It's ludicrous to pretend that feminists (or even women who don't identify as feminists) don't have anything relevant to say about an industry with stark female over-representation, whether that's nursing, child minding or prostitution

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GayeDalton · 12/07/2016 00:42

LassWiTheDelicateAir

The simple courtesy between equals is a very personal thing. If I tell you I find the word "prostitute" offensive and you keep using it and openly insisting I accept that you are being DELIBERATELY OFFENSIVE - to me (AKA deliberately attacking) and being quite cold blooded and complex about it too.

You know this perfectly well so stop pretending you don't because that kind of abuse will never wash with me.

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/07/2016 00:49

It is your problem if you find the noun which applies to what you do offensive. You have said repeatedly you sell sex for money.

I find your attempts to sanitise it, normalise it, sugar coat it and prettify it extremely offensive so we have a stalemate.

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GayeDalton · 12/07/2016 00:58

OlennasWimple

It is the barefaced deceit, ruthless ignorance, and self serving corruption that I have seen abolitionists bring to this issue with my own eyes that requires them excluded, and frankly, will prejudice me against 3rd wave feminism for the rest of my life (if they can play that dirty with sex workers lives they can do it with anything, and I have caught 'em out too.)

...and believe me, cynic as I always was, what I have seen has shocked me rigid, in ways I did not need to be shocked.

They are not impartial, they are not honest, they are consistently abusive and they are antagonistic to the most basic needs and rights of sex workers as human beings.

Worse (in a way) they are so busy finding out ways to manipulate the issue that they have never bothered to learn any of the facts at all.

#Nobody has ever agreed to sit down with sex workers as equal in public discussion.
#Nobody has ever consulted sex workers about their lives.
#Nobody has even consulted sex workers about what they would need to get out of sex work without undeserved hardship.


They just make us, and our lives up, as they go along, which is of no use to anyone.

...and really, seriously, I do not think sex workers or interior designers would have much useful contribution to make to a discussion on nursing.

It is unheard of for "feminists" (or anyone) to impose representation represent women not only without mandate but against their active opposition, it is ridiculous...

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GayeDalton · 12/07/2016 01:00

LassWiTheDelicateAir

The simple courtesy between equals is a very personal thing. If I tell you I find the word "prostitute" offensive and you keep using it and openly insisting I accept that you are being DELIBERATELY OFFENSIVE - to me (AKA deliberately attacking) and being quite cold blooded and complex about it too.

You know this perfectly well so stop pretending you don't because that kind of abuse will never wash with me.

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OlennasWimple · 12/07/2016 02:33

Public consultation in Canada

Public consultation in California

Amnesty International consultation

And those are the first few hits (that got through my work firewall...) from a Google search on "prostitution decriminization consultation". But yeah, no one asks sex workers what they think Hmm

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GayeDalton · 12/07/2016 03:10

OlennasWimple
And those are the first few hits (that got through my work firewall...) from a Google search on "prostitution decriminization consultation". But yeah, no one asks sex workers what they think hmm

Please do not twist my words, it is just irritating.

I made it quite clear I was talking about Abolitionist 3rd wave feminists, and public discussion on equal terms.

However, Amnesty International has come out in favour of full decriminalisation, despite abolitionist 3rd wave feminists being FLOWN in to wander around the hotel stuffing fliers under doors and pestering and intimidating delegates. (The hotel is very near my home).

The "California" consultation was, in fact a California submission to a Scottish consultation set out by an MSP who supports us in respect of a private members' bill.

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DetestableHerytike · 12/07/2016 06:59

Gaye, your posts are increasingly nonsensical and you are being far ruder to feminists (and Lass) than feminists (and Lass) are to you.

Pigeons and chessboards. Over and out.

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GayeDalton · 12/07/2016 08:28

DetestableHerytike

Stop trying to gaslight me, it's never going to work.

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