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Guest post: "I fear the eradication of Down's syndrome"

999 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 16/11/2015 17:29

On the day Natty was born, I wasn't sure I was up to being her mother. Ignorance took over. Everything I thought I knew about Down's syndrome was a smattering of outdated stereotypes, all of which have subsequently been proved wrong.

In eight years, we have come so far as a family, risen to challenges, endured heart surgery, made adjustments and learnt to slow our pace and live in the moment. I wouldn't change any of it. I am a better person now. The pregnant woman I was, whose heart was filled with fear at the words Down's syndrome, now shakes her head in disbelief.

I've been bleary-eyed over research for this post. And, in fact, as I rose at 5.30am, drafts of what I would write very much in my mind, there was one member of our busy household who noticed my pensiveness. Natty drew me down to her face level, looked intuitively at me and said 'It's OK Mummy.'

I held her so tight, and made a silent promise into her warm hair, a promise that I would do my best to convey her worth to the world.

Because while we praise advances in healthcare and women's control over their reproductive lives, there is an important ethical debate I fear is being overlooked.

A new non-invasive prenatal test (NIPT) could help identify women whose babies have Down's syndrome. The test involves taking a sample of blood from the mother and it uses this to detect the baby's DNA.

At the moment, the NIPT test is available privately, but it could soon be rolled out by the NHS as part of their population screening programme. The UK National Screening Committee has just ended consultation over offering it - it can only be added to the programme if there is a beneficial reason for doing so.

However, there is no health gain in diagnosing Down's syndrome during pregnancy. It cannot be treated or prevented. It simply allows parents to decide whether to continue a pregnancy to term or not.

There are ethical implications to genetic testing, but no easy answers. The UNESCO International Bioethics Committee says that genetic testing can offer women the right of choice. However, it could also become routine that ill or disabled children are not to given the choice of birth at all.

So giving women choice whilst not devaluing individuals with Down's syndrome is a fine line to tread.

We must ensure that parents are given unbiased, updated information in order to make informed choices. There can be no assumption that those with Down's syndrome are not compatible with life - or worse, that they are too costly to have a right to life.

We are promised that the new NIPT can allow parents to be prepared for their baby's arrival and that it will not increase termination rates. However, in countries where Down's syndrome screening has been standard for years, termination rates stand at almost 100%. Are these tests being sold as a kind form of early euthanasia to trusting expectant parents - and will a whole genetic group of people be targeted in the process?

The support networks we have in place simply aren't as sophisticated as the genetic tests being considered. We must explain test implications and outcomes, support those who choose a termination and give equal care to those who choose to continue their pregnancies. We need charities that aren't partnered with the test manufacturers.

If parents are rushed into terminations, or asked repeatedly if they would like to end their pregnancies, then we are certainly sending out the message that some lives are worth a great deal less than others.

We need the screening committee to welcome input from parental groups and self-advocates. We need to match up the wonderful examples of best practice by bringing committed midwives and learning disability nurses together, and we need to accept the value of difference.

Society has come a long way from the days when children with Down's syndrome were institutionalised with little or no love, educational support or quality healthcare. We hope Natty will find employment she enjoys, have a partner of her choosing, a social life fuller than ours and live a long, healthy life independently with support.

I cannot bear to think that one day I will have to explain to Natty why others think her adored life is not worth living, or even justify her very existence. But here I am, already doing just that.

And, most of all, I fear that one day I will be grieving, as others celebrate the eradication of all children like my beautiful daughter. No Natty, maybe it's not OK.

The BBC is making a documentary about Down's syndrome, which Hayley Gowleniowska is contributing to. If you are affected by the tests and interested in an initial off-the-record research chat, please contact Clare at [email protected].

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 11:35

"It is perfectly possible to think a child in the womb IS a child, killing it is murder and STILL be pro-choice"

No, it is not possible.

Abortion is not murder because the foetus is not a person. And killing or otherwise ending the life of a living being that is not a person is not murder.

"just as it is possible to think killing an adult/born person is murder and STILL be in favour of euthanasia"

Absolutely not. Euthanasia is not murder because it is assisted suicide, the crucial part here being that the euthanised person is an adult of sound mind who actually wants to die.

crumblybiscuits · 19/11/2015 11:36

It is perfectly possible to think a child in the womb IS a child, killing it is murder and STILL be pro-choice, just as it is possible to think killing an adult/born person is murder and STILL be in favour of euthanasia.

I'm so glad I murdered my daughter instead of her dying a slow, painful death in the hospital. I visit her grave every week just to revel in my murderous ways.

BadlyBehavedShoppingTrolley · 19/11/2015 11:38

yes, if you are the person who said that it is possible to see killing an unborn child as murder, i think so.

Whether you were expressing an opinion or just theorising and playing devil's advocate, it wasn't terribly appropriate.

wannaBe · 19/11/2015 11:38

it's a matter of opinion though. if it were my child then I would consider it to be killing my baby to have a termination. I wouldn't deem that to be any more ok than to kill it at birth because of its disabilities.

that doesn't mean that I consider anyone else who has had a termination to be a murderer. There are people on here who have spoken about how they didn't want a disabled child because they value their social life more. That is just as offensive to the parents of disabled children.

And it is worth bearing in mind that not everyone who terminates because of disability does so because the disability would leave a child with lifelong pain and suffering. I am VI and I know people who have terminated because of potential VI which is hardly a disability frought with long-term pain and suffering or a lesser life. the idea that my disability is one which means a pregnancy could be terminated up to birth is despicable. So while there are some disabilities which have difficult outcomes and which mean that parents do take the painful decision to terminate, there are many which are not, but which are still categorised into the allowed to terminate to birth category....

Alyselisabeth · 19/11/2015 11:39

Crumblybiscuit. Thankyou. Xx

zzzzz · 19/11/2015 11:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Owllady · 19/11/2015 11:45

Zzz had posted she'd missed out a not
Confused
Really the post needs to be deleted but I ain't the post police

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 19/11/2015 11:45

*BadlyBehavedShoppingTrolley

yes, if you are the person who said that it is possible to see killing an unborn child as murder, i think so. *

I think some people should reread the thread as there seems to be a lot of accusations and hurt feelings going around and it's best to know who said exactly what before firing in.

If people are angry at me flame away. But don't want to accept other people's roastings (sorry zzzz Grin)

Alisvolatpropiis · 19/11/2015 11:46

That rings a bell, zzzzz.

Whilst on the subject of what went on in the past. Historically disabled infants were left outside city walls, abandoned in asylums, killed. Actually infanticide was (quietly) quite commonplace until fairly recently in our history, regardless of the health of the baby in question.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 19/11/2015 11:47

Yes, on a serious note maybe you could ask for your post to be edited to include the not zzzz.

Feelings running high and people leaping in

Alyselisabeth · 19/11/2015 11:50

I strongly agree that there had been comments that are upsetting and speaking for me personally I have been careful as to not say things I think will cause offence as I really do believe that everybody does what it best for their own family, their own circumstances.
I think people who are disabled or have dc are brave and amazing but I also think that about people who have tfmr.

Everyone is different.
I was told on my 1st day of my job (I am a funeral arranger) that the worst possible thing to say to anyone is 'I know how you feel' because no one does. I believe that in all what life throws at anyone. No body knows how that person feels and to make assumptions is wrong.

zzzzz · 19/11/2015 11:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 11:54

zzzz - No actually, it is your logic that is "wonky".

"Of course you could believe that a foetus is "a person" from conception but that a mother had the right to kill that person if they thought it best."

Of course you could not. There is no legal framework or precedent that allows people to kill each other "if they thought it best".

"I think parents (fathers?) had the right to kill infants historically (nb I CANNOT remember where I read that)."

Are you seriously saying that this has a place in our laws? Not in the Western world and surely not in the last 500 years or so.

BadlyBehavedShoppingTrolley · 19/11/2015 11:57

Oh okay if I misread something or missed a later admission that a post needed editing then I apologise. xx

BadlyBehavedShoppingTrolley · 19/11/2015 11:58

This is why i wish we had an timed edit function on here, with fast moving topics it's hard to catch everything in exactly the spirit with which is was intended.

sorry zzzz

Alyselisabeth · 19/11/2015 12:01

Cote...before you jump down my throat I'm not assuming I'm asking a question.....

Have you ended a pregnancy due to a fatal diagnosis?

If not you can no possibly justify your comment with anyone who has.
For me personally and I know at least a couple of other following this thread ended their pregnancies because they felt it was kinder than watching their baby barely survive for only a few days even hours in pain and suffering.

If you haven't held that baby in your arms and grieved for them then you wouldn't understand why we get offended when you say that they aren't a person....and that if we think they are that makes us a murderer.

CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 12:14

I realise that there are people with personal tragedies on this thread who look at this issue from an entirely emotional POV. Mine is an objective one and I am talking about the legal POV.

To answer your question: No I haven't ended a pregnancy due to a condition incompatible with life but I was prepared to. That is why I had amniocenteses during both pregnancies.

I would have done so because the foetus (especially at 17 weeks or so when I would have aborted) is not a person and the law agrees with me on this. If foetus was a person in the eyes of the law, nobody on this thread or anywhere else would have been allowed to end a pregnancy, even after a fatal diagnosis, just like you can't go around killing terminal cancer patients.

Alyselisabeth · 19/11/2015 12:21

Let's just agree to disagree then shall we.
As much as I understand what you're saying about the law it is hurtful to me you can not see my point of view.

Maybe you would feel differently had that happened to you. Though I'm glad it hasn't.

Imeg · 19/11/2015 13:00

The original post and some of the responses have struck some chords with me. A minor physical condition runs in our family - not likely to be associated with significant pain, and in my opinion doesn't meet the Equality Act definition of a disability (significant effect on day to day life). It is however quite visible and therefore has the potential to affect self-esteem, which worries me more than the relatively minor physical difficulties. I found Hoot's post quite difficult to read as I worry that this could be how my child feels in future.

I think this debate is also relevant to PGD (IVF with testing) as this is another area which could be considered to be making a value judgement. This was not an option for us previously but we have been told that it may be an option in future. We haven't decided yet whether we will go down this route. I am hesitant, partly because it seems a bit OTT for a relatively minor condition but also because I wonder how my first child would feel about it - I worry that he would feel that we didn't want another child like him.

Another issue is that because this is a relatively rare and minor condition it hasn't been studied much. What if the mutation that gives rise to this condition is also associated with eg higher intelligence or reduced risk of depression or cancer? I don't have any evidence for this being likely, but I have studied genetics and I know it's not impossible - we just don't know enough about it. Because it's quite minor if this were the case the risk/benefit analysis of having a child with the condition might be quite finely balanced.

I appreciate that I am dealing with a much more minor condition than many others on here have in their lives, and I can't know how I'd feel in those circumstances, but I do wonder where the line falls between a disability and a difference?

Anyway, that's ended up a bit rambling but best wishes to everyone dealing with difficult situations of various kinds.

Devilishpyjamas · 19/11/2015 13:07

Well I can't fly to New York. But I couldn't afford to anyway Confused On my list of 'things that are bad about having a child with disabilities' not being able to fly to New York for the weekend isn't really on there.

I am taking ds2 for a Very Special trip to London - which was a nightmare to organise around ds1 & his 2:1-needs (as had to arrange it to coincide with respite over xmas when respite is limited), but we got there. Until ds1 became 2:1 we could have organisec a New York weekend trip if that had been very important to us (it's not). I'd very much like to do the trans Siberian with ds1 one day, but he'll have to calm down a lot before that's possible (& it costs a fortune anyway so I'll also have to win the lottery).

I think on the whole lack of cash limits me more than ds1.

I do have a social life on facebook though. :preens:

zzzzz · 19/11/2015 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 13:30

"I understand what you're saying about the law it is hurtful to me you can not see my point of view."

I can see you POV and understand that it comes from a place of hurt.

"Maybe you would feel differently had that happened to you."

Quite possibly, although history suggests that I am resistant to emotional decisions even where traumatic past experiences are concerned. (Not proud of this - it is what it is).

Legal concepts and laws are not (and should not be) formed on the basis of emotional reactions, though.

That is why abortion is legal in this country. I imagine you agree this is a good thing? If it were based on emotional reactions and thinking a foetus is a person because the tiny lump of cells at 12 weeks has extensions we can recognise as hands and feet, you would not have been able to end your pregnancy despite the fatal diagnosis.

CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 13:34

"Arf at the law being what drives people's beliefs"

That is not what I said. I suggest you read it again. Laughing at stuff you don't understand is not an argument.

Brocklady · 19/11/2015 13:39

Excellent posts ShoppingTrolley

I absolutely agree.

DixieNormas · 19/11/2015 13:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.