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Guest post: Paternity leave: 'I expect my male employees to take six months off - and it's good for business'

45 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 11/02/2015 16:46

After announcements about extend paternity or parental leave, commentators often refer to the much lauded 'Nordic system', of which, as Swedish managing director, I am a part.

Dads in Sweden are entitled to 10 paid days (80% of salary up to a certain limit) away from work in connection to their child's birth. Then, Swedish parents are entitled to a total of 480 days of leave, paid at up to 80% of their salary (with a cap of £2,300 per month, before tax) following the birth or adoption of a child. Each parent is entitled to take at least 60 days of this allowance, and the rest can be split as parents wish. This ensures all new fathers have the opportunity to spend at the least two months of their child's early life at home with them.

The Swedish government's policy, along with the shifting of attitudes regarding gender roles in parenting, has led to a significant change in the amount of leave taken by fathers: in 1980, only 5% of parental leave was taken by men. It increased to 17% in 2003 – an improvement, but still not at the level it is today. The real change came in 2008, when our ‘equality bonus’ was introduced to reward the more equal use of parental days, and today, 25% of all parental leave is taken by men. On average, the father of a newborn in Sweden will take four months off work. In young, creative companies it is not uncommon for fathers to take six months or more of paternity leave.

It all sounds brilliant, doesn't it? But what about the cost to businesses? I run one such company, and I fully expect my male employees to take six months off at some point during their child’s early life.

When our employees - both male and female - take time off to be with their children, it's good for us in the long-term. Firstly, it means that the impact of the major career road-block women can experience is much reduced. Paternity leave is an important factor in making sure women can advance their careers as quickly as men, and this is one way to close the gender pay gap. We need these talented women - like many other Swedish companies, we believe in gender equality, and that being a mixed, diverse team is crucial to our success.

Of course, it is a challenge for us to be without a valued member of staff at any stage, but it's a short-term challenge - and it also offers opportunities. Fathers and mothers being away from work means a chance for myself and the rest of the management team to give more responsibility to newer employees, and see how they react when taking on a bigger role. All businesses should build their capacity to deal with new situations, and we've found that adapting our organisational DNA is highly valuable in today's fast-moving world.

As a company, we've been continuously growing; we've gone from five to 33 employees in the last two years, and we will continue to grow over the next few years. Being able to give people more responsibility, ahead of a full promotion, has worked for us because we've have always had more work to do when the mother or father is back in the office, requiring responsibility to be shared more widely.

In the long-term, too, that individual is happier and a better colleague and employee, because he or she has been given the opportunity to do what's best for their family.

I love it when we have every team member in the office every day, but I also know that our long-term success is reliant on happy and creative employees, and proper paternity leave is a crucial part of that.

OP posts:
AKnickerfulOfMenace · 14/02/2015 20:53

Yy. If it's important to a particular family to EBF, then they can divide the leave to facilitate that if they wish. That's not been ruled out by the new structure.

I didn't take my full allowance of ML and I continued to BF after I went back.

ColdCottage · 14/02/2015 21:04

Unfortunately until the company has to pay who ever takes the parental leave the same for a man or a woman in their company men just won't be taking unpaid leave.

The law needs to make it equal pay rights as well as equal leave rights for all businesses.

Amummyatlast · 14/02/2015 21:45

Coldcottage, with the new shared parental leave (from April) men will be entitled to shared parental leave pay, at the same date as women. And even the rules before required men to be paid for paternity leave at the statutory rate.

Kahlua4me · 14/02/2015 22:00

I am all for getting dads involved in child care and equal rights but cannot work out how this can benefit all businesses. It goes round in circles in my head and I cannot see how it won't make our turnover drop.

We run a very small company with 4 experienced, qualified men working, and me. If one of them chose to take their entitled parental leave our business would certainly suffer.

We would ultimately be paying them their wages with no profit/income coming in through them. They all work full time and it's not possible to simply cover each other, unless they do the extra hours, and then they will need paying extra accordingly.

slightlyglitterstained · 14/02/2015 22:09

Kahlua, are you saying that you would not hire a qualified woman?

And/or you have absolutely no way of ensuring the work gets done if one of your 4 male employees has a heart attack tomorrow and needs several months off? A medical emergency gives you far less warning time than a pregnancy to sort something out, and it can hit any time. Have had colleague go off for chemo and not return for 6 months. An ex-colleague was very very adamant about cross-training as much as possible, after the only person on the team who understood a critical machine dropped dead one day. They were fucked, absolutely fucked.

PetulaGordino · 14/02/2015 22:13

I have had business-owners tell me (on a social situation) that they would not employ me based on the fact that I am a woman of child-bearing age and they couldn't afford maternity leave. If more men start exerting their right to shared parental leave then those employers would have to start discriminating against men during the years when they might produce children. Which of course would be the whole of their working lives

FoxHugs · 14/02/2015 22:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mindifidont · 14/02/2015 22:29

Kahlua, I'm sure you can understand how what you're describing could be discriminatory towards women.

You have either chosen not to employ women due to this "risk" or if you're in a very male dominated industry, your expecting industries dominated by women to carry the cost of parental leave.

If men start taking more parental leave they too will be seen as a "risk" and it should level out the playing field.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 14/02/2015 22:35

"We would ultimately be paying them their wages "

Kahlua, a small company can reclaim just over 100% of SMP - I assume the same is true for paternity pay and parental leave pay, you don't pay "wages" but the statutory amount and the government refunds it. I assume you've never had a woman working for you go on maternity leave?

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 14/02/2015 22:37

AMummy and Cold - the issue is around any enhanced pay, the civil service will pay the same as enhanced maternity pay in the parental leave period, but this isn't compulsory as yet.

NK5BM3 · 14/02/2015 23:51

Well, my maternity pay was 16 weeks of full pay, and then the rest on SMP (you can choose to go back to work then, or take up to 52 weeks)... Alternatively, you can have option b which was something along the lines of 8 weeks full pay, 16 weeks half pay + SMP, and the rest of the time just SMP. Obviously you would do the math, see how long you want to stay off and then choose.

If they offer that to women, they can offer that to men too. There are senior women of child bearing age being paid good money to work, so their male counterparts will take home the same amount.

There seems to be this assumption that women are being paid peanuts, hence why it's better for them to take the leave or be the sahp. And I speak as a bf mother. If we had this sort of arrangement when I had the kids, we would have been a lot more better off, as I was the higher wage earner, and it would have been great if my dh could have taken the next 6 months off and we could have saved on childcare and less stress etc.

Kahlua4me · 15/02/2015 08:51

Slightlyglitter, yes we would employ a woman, of course, I am a woman too! Grin It just happens that the electricians we have are all men.

I could certainly rearrange the work, or employ someone else, but the others cannot get extra work done to cover.

As for claiming it all back, I didn't know about that. Obviously haven't looked it to it enough Blush as I am sure we couldn't claim it back last time, although that was a few years ago.

Sorry

Amummyatlast · 15/02/2015 09:17

I agree that any enhanced mat pay should be offered to men too. My work only offers SMP, as does DH's former employer, so it was never an issue for us. What was an issue was the way his employer reacted when he told them that he wanted to take additonal paternity leave. They couldn't understand why he wanted to do it and complained that he hadn't given enough notice (he gave 8 weeks are required by the legislation). They never contacted him at all during his additonal paternity leave (mine had sent me staff newsletters and invited me for KIT days) and when he resigned to become a SAHD they never even acknowledged his resignation, when he had been there for 10 years. They seemed to be offended by the fact he wanted to spend time with his children.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 15/02/2015 09:56

www.gov.uk/recover-statutory-payments/reclaiming

PilchardPrincess · 15/02/2015 10:19

I'm a bit flabbergasted that more than one person on the thread has basically identified male work as specialist, niche, and then men as hard to replace, while women's work apparently is straightforward and two a penny. Seriously? It is impossible to imagine that there are women in key, critical rules in the UK? And that men can and do work in jobs that are not expert or niche? Wtf????

NK5BM3 · 15/02/2015 20:18

Pilchard - I think that's it. There seems to be this assumption that women are employed in easily dispensable jobs where one can do with their eyes closed for v little money or part time. Therefore easy to replace.

And men are highly trained, cost a lot of money and expertise therefore too difficult to replace hence shouldn't be given paternity pay.

Argh. I cannot believe this. Or actually I guess I can. Because it's happening here. And there's why women who go back to work after a few months off maternity leave are given short shrift... Funnily enough from other women most of the time.

Kahlua4me · 16/02/2015 00:07

I just feel I need to clarify a few things about me. Not that any of you have any idea who or what I am but it has really upset me that from my one posts all sorts of assumptions were made and it has been playing over and over in my mind.

Firstly, in no way am I discriminatory towards women. Until now, when I found out that all parental leave pay can be claimed back from the government I did think that small businesses would struggle to pay any member of staff to have extended leave. I now stand corrected on that.

We take quality of family life and work/life balance as very important. As such have no set annual leave restrictions allowing lads to take time when suits them. For holidays, childcare, hosp apps for family members. Allowing them to finish early when quiet, sending them home when ill but I would not dream of docking pay. Our staff/colleagues have been with us a long time so we must be doing something right alhough from reading repossess to my post you would never know that.

I posted on this thread as thought it was about parental leave, not simply a slanging match and am upset that others felt obliged to tear my post to shreds. I was in no way saying anything against women and am confused by the follow up.

Anyway, I will leave you all to it and so sorry for getting it all wrong...

slightlyglitterstained · 16/02/2015 09:29

Apart from the response where I actually used your name, Kahlua, my replies weren't aimed at you directly, and I worded that post as I did not to say that you would discriminate against women, but to point out that seemed to be the logical conclusion of your argument. (More of a "do you realise how that sounds?" than an accusation IYSWIM).

There have been far more extreme posts than yours, which people are understandably responding to strongly.

I'm sorry if you've felt attacked - hopefully this thread might save you a lot of money in future given that you didn't realise you could claim back parental leave! In a thread like this with a lot of responses, it's not always clear who people are responding to, and I can see that being family friendly is important to you, and feeling that you might be getting lumped in with family hostile employers would be hurtful.

NK5BM3 · 16/02/2015 10:04

Hi Kahlua
My posts weren't directed at you at all, rather to all family-unfriendly policies. But sorry if you did feel that it was picking on you.

It is incredibly frustrating though, my employer for one. They say they are inclusive, family friendly etc. which to a certain extent they are... But they also refuse to do what seems to me, to be easy things, like aligning our reading weeks to the county's school half terms. I work in higher education, and as a 'teacher' here and also as a parent, I would like our 'half terms' to coincide with the state schools half terms. It doesn't.

So at the moment, I'm at work because I have teaching etc to sort out, whilst my son is at home with the father, who is self-employed and works from home.

Next year, when I have two at home during half term I don't know what to do... Particularly when the littler one will not want to do football camp!

Kahlua4me · 16/02/2015 10:58

Thanks for your responses. I think maybe I reacted as i thought all were at me personally as must have missed the others. Too fragile I am Grin

And yes, it will help us in the future as I have learnt about claiming money back! Thank you.

Having the half terms not coinciding must be extremely difficult to manage. It's hard enough when inset days don't align and that only the one day.

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