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Guest post: Chore survey - why do women put up with doing the lion's share?

56 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/10/2014 16:51

On Monday I met a friend for lunch. I'd put ‘Luncheon with Janet’ in the calendar, because it made us both laugh to think of ourselves as Ladies who Lunch.

As we were sitting chatting, my husband walked into the cafe, carrying a big bag of food shopping. He looked rather dashing, actually, all six foot three of him; he had on one of his dark work jackets, and those deep chocolate brown eyes were twinkling.

He wanted to know whether I had the car with me, so he could put the shopping in the boot and walk home. As he left the cafe, we flirted with each other, and he pulled an imaginary forelock, Clifford to my Lady Chatterley.

How are we to interpret this silly little anecdote? My heart burst with pride to see my husband in an unaccustomed context and to see him caring for the family, but the transaction still had to take place under the aegis of irony - I'm not really a lady who lunches and he isn't really my butler or my gardener. This was division of labour as stage show.

This week, Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour is exploring 'Chore Wars', while Mumsnet has published the results of their chores survey, which asked 1000 women who work outside the home how they share the chores with their partners.

It's fascinating stuff, if a bit depressing. Take Jonathan Gershuny of the Centre for Time Use Research in Oxford, making the point on Woman's Hour that women have been completely done over in the modern world: because you cannot expect marriage to last (statistically), you'd better keep earning, and you are still going to shoulder the majority of the unpaid work at home.

Gershuny's findings show that although some tasks like cooking (note: creative, occasionally enjoyable) have become more evenly shared, very few men pull their weight with tasks like laundry (note: mind-numbingly dull). The Mumsnet survey also reflected this: 77% of women who work outside the home are also responsible for the washing.

Of course, the advent of dishwashers and washing machines and hoovers should mean that women’s lives have got easier – but have they? I would argue that the way we use labour-saving devices has itself become laborious because we've made more work for ourselves. Washday is no longer just Monday, but every day - the chore of washing has multiplied, because it is no longer acceptable, in our image-conscious society, to wear two-day old clothing. Keeping your children looking presentable is just one example of the domestic expectations heaped on women – markers, like having a spotless home, that have become, apparently, necessary in order to register on the index of female success.

When I began my family, I had a good understanding of how tiring and intense parenting would be, but nothing prepared me for the domestic scenario that goes along with it: wall to wall female expectation that I would do it all, in the home and outside it, and that ‘sharing’ was, impossibly, both a kind of failure, and a kind of privilege. I shouldn't need help, and if I did, I was weak. I felt as if I had walked out of my own life and into the nineteenth century.

There's a constant sense of guilt and competition, the feeling that if you can't manage this 'thing' – the home, the family, the cooking, the children's needs, your partner's needs – as millions of women have done before you, and continue to do around the world, then you’re a failure.

It's fascinating to me that 66% of the women Mumsnet asked about chores said they didn't want their partner to do more around the house, despite the unequal distribution of responsibilities, either because they’re comfortable with the current balance, or because it suits them to do the chores themselves, or because they believe that their partner would not perform them to the 'requisite standard'. Could it be the case that we know we're getting a rough deal, but that the idea that women are ‘better suited’ than men to domestic drudgery is still so pervasive that we'd rather not upset the status quo, salving ourselves with: ‘they’d do a rubbish job, anyway’?

So, what's the solution? Chores need to get done, after all. After years of trying to do it all, I've learnt that sharing is crucial. I've learnt that chores are in large part self-imposed, turned into an instrument of competition and made much worse by contemporary expectations from schools about ‘parental engagement’. I've also learnt that chores are as demeaning for women as they are for men, and that a bit of hard work doesn't hurt our children either. After all, they're part of the team too.

OP posts:
BauerTime · 12/10/2014 14:43

I clicked on this reply box intending to write something profound but actually I have nothing useful to say.

Id say I do at least 2/3 of the domestic chores and am 90% responsible for DS. DH does do some, but he is the type who will wait until he has no clean pants in the drawer and then stick a wash on, rather than keep on top of things. I'm the opposite so I do the majority because I keep on top of it and so he rarely gets the the bottom of the pants drawer. This logic applies to most other domestic responsibilities too. I do them because I like to know that we aren't going to get to the stage where there's no clean clothes, no food in the cupboards, the house needs a good thorough clean etc etc.

funnyperson · 12/10/2014 16:16

The state of the home is seen by all as the woman's responsibility. Very few households budget adequately for cleaning and childcare because very few households can afford it. Men can and do walk off if expected to do their share of the housework and childcare even if both partners work. It is easier to have an affair if the wife is busy doing the housework. Divorce settlements very rarely allow for working women to employ a cleaner and/or childminder.

KiaOraOAotearoa · 12/10/2014 18:00

I asked him to take the duster to the cobwebs. About 5 minutes ago.
I then went to the bathroom. He comes after me: so, have you got the duster?
I'm in the loo, why would I have the duster with me?
Why are you snapping, I only asked, thought you might have started? I can't see it in the cupboard ( it was in the cupboard. It is also bright orange and about a meter high).

Now, we've been married for about two decades, we're both degree educated, no disabilities, speaking the same language.

That's why we just do most of the chores. The rest of the Sunday evening will be spent in anger.

vezzie · 12/10/2014 20:50

KiaOra has it.,
the penalties of trying to make a man pitch in are just too high. Many women say they prefer to do it themselves (I think) not because, they actually prefer loading the washing to machine to reading a book / chatting to a friend / learning a language / writing a book / doing something creative / taking exercise / watching a movie / getting some sleep - but because they prefer loading a washing machine to:

having a resentful conversation about loading the washing machine;
getting sulked or shouted at by a man who is about to, or has just, or is "about to" load the washing machine;
wondering if they can ask the man again to load the washing machine when he shows no sign of doing it, has sort of grumpily agreed to, but the dcs need clean dry uniforms for tomorrow and it is getting later and later;
dealing with shrunken, ruined clothes from passive aggressive incompetence by a man loading the washing machine;
finding that they are expected to perform exaggerated gratitude at the loading of the washing machine, including not mentioning that "in return" he has decided to drop every other minor chore he might consider doing;
dealing with exaggerated sarcasm after the loading of the washing machine, eg "and would madam like anything else?";
being disturbed doing whatever she was intending to do instead by being required to recite the manual, in detail (the manual that is actually sitting on the shelf right above the washing machine);
and so on

Compared to dealing with all of the above, it is often easier to load the washing machine.
If are in it for the long game: if you work really hard at the issue with determination, you may come out the other side with a. a man who will now load the washing machine and inflict no penalties or b. no man at all because the relationship didn't survive the process. Many women don't want to put that level of work in because the risk of b is genuine if you are serious about this - and it's not like the process of getting there feels like an easy ride either

Men - AS A CLASS - are really fucking brilliant at punishing women who try to get them to do housework.
I read on here all the time about men who don't punish, but I hardly know any of them at all in real life

Littlebluebutterflies · 12/10/2014 22:41

morethan I used to be a SAHM, I did everything in the house plus 95% of the child care. I was happy to do it as part of our bargain that he would work and I would stay at home with the children. I too was very happy with that.

However, as the children got older, as agreed, I picked up my career again. I work minimum 50 hours per week plus commuting time in a senior professional role. I do 70% of the cooking, cleaning, laundry and shopping. I do 100% of child related admin (organising birthday party's, school related stuff etc)

I adore my DH, we're very happy.

But I seem to have trapped myself in the classic position of having to 'do it all'. Of being the perfect wife, perfect mother and maintaining the perfect home, meanwhile having the high flying career expected of me. The pressure is enormous.

I like my life, but it exhausts me. You wouldn't be able to tell from the outside apart from the fact that I've gone up two dress sizes since I went back to work. I'm mostly too exhausted to exercise and it feels like just one more area that demands perfection of me.

It's a trap of my own making, I certainly don't blame my DH for it. I don't even think he fully recognises the trap I'm in. He helps when I ask for it, and goes through phases when the balance shifts nearer to 50% than it is currently. However the responsibility for keeping 'the home fires' burning still always seems to rest with me.

There are steps I could take to make things better, and I make them from time to time but that too is exhausting.

I have both a son and a daughter. One of my greatest hopes for them is that she manages to make a life that doesn't involve her shutting herself into the same glided cage I have and that he doesn't contribute to putting his wife/partner in one in years to come.

TheHoneyBadger · 13/10/2014 09:35

realistically why would he/she if he/she has witnessed this set up?

i don't mean to be blameful i just think it's really depressing the way this is perpetuated generation to generation.

i also wonder how people can manage to 'love and adore' someone who doesn't pull their weight and contributes to you being exhausted and feeling trapped.

TheHoneyBadger · 13/10/2014 09:37

i think what vezzie says is a large part of why i never really wanted to get married. i grew up watching marriages and what the life of a wife looked like and i can remember saying i'd rather have a wife than a husband when i was a kid. sadly i'm mostly straight and realistically wouldn't act like that anyway.

the whole thing just looks like such a con.

AnotherStitchInTime · 13/10/2014 09:49

Having swapped being the SAHP role with DH (and due to swap back again soon when I go to work) I think we have balanced it reasonably well.

Whoever is home does the bulk of the cooking, cleaning and childcare. When I worked last DH did my ironing (because I hate doing it). Currently he cooks on the weekend, helps clean, does laundry and does bath and bedtime. It was the same when I worked just reversed (except we only had one DC then, now we have three).

Having swapped roles helps us understand what it is like working out of home/being the SAHP for the other person which helps.

andmyunpopularopionis · 13/10/2014 10:11

things won't really change till women say fuck off! i'm not bloody skivvying around the house whilst you sit on the sofa.

This ^^

I've got better things to do with my life and if people judge me .. Well they can fuck off. I don't care. There are a million things I'lll do before housework and as I work fulltime it doesn't leave time for housework. DH and I do what needs to be done but we don't live in a show home and I don't care.

On my deathbed the fact that I didn't hoover enough is not going to worry me...

morethanpotatoprints · 13/10/2014 19:35

littleblue

I know this isn't in the spirit of the thread but have you tried giving him a list? You sound as though you have a good sound relationship and you clearly love him to bits.
I know it shouldn't have to be like this but if it makes life better for you, it may be worth spelling it out to him.
I don't know how you manage it tbh, you must be so well organised.
If its any consolation, I said this on another thread, but children seem to be a lot wiser earlier these days.
I wish I could give you advice, but I am a sahm and not used to having to do it all.
I know that if a night a week for yourself was available doing something just for you would be a help.

slightlyglitterstained · 14/10/2014 07:04

My parents definitely followed a "oh, I was just about to do that" pattern. Except it was my father who did the bulk of the housework, and my mother who rarely "got around to it".

This definitely set my expectations for later partners. DP and I had a pretty unequal share initially, as he was definitely "responsible" for housework and I "helped" when I felt like it, which wasn't often. In his previous relationship, his partner did the bulk of the cooking so it's not that he has always done that.

I've since realised (with some prompting and reminders from DP) that's not a particularly fair way to treat a partner and now we have a rather more equal share, though it swings back and forth a bit which is fine. He currently does a bit more housework, and I do a bit more childcare (though he is the "primary organiser" for nursery related stuff), but overall it's reasonably balanced.

So it is possible to start with a (reasonable, caring) man who did not have an expectation of doing housework, and have him do his share and more. My father was absolutely not brought up like that - he was the baby of the family, very much spoiled and doted on, and brought up in an extremely sexist environment. (His mother thought his older sisters should defer to him as the boy of the family!). He used to say "oh, this is women's work, this is for women, I shouldn't be doing this, it's a woman's job to do this" while mending sofa covers, cleaning the house, or cooking the dinner. Needless to say my siblings and I took our cue from what he did, not what he said.

I don't know whether it was primarily my mother just (passively) refusing, or my father's impatience and deciding that if he wanted a well organised, uncluttered environment then he'd have to take charge of doing that. He could certainly have just sat on his arse and nagged my mother until she gave in, but he chose not to.

I do know that with myself and DP, it was up to me to decide that I wasn't being fair, and it wasn't until I decided to change my mindset that things improved. All the while it was mentally "someone else's problem", it was something I didn't even see or think about. And being asked to do X, Y or Z did nothing to alleviate that.

So I think that while it may be "up to" women to point out unfairness, and to avoid just taking over stuff by default, it is fundamentally down to men to decide that actually, they do give a shit about how their partner feels, and it is not beneath them to do the skivvying too, and that they can learn how the washing machine works, and learn to see when the bath needs cleaning and the floor needs mopping. All the while the status quo exists, it is because they are making a constant daily choice to keep it so.

Kirkegaard · 14/10/2014 20:55

Absolutely fascinating range of views. Here are some of the key points:

A. IT'S MY ROLE BECAUSE I'M AT HOME

  1. 'for now I'll get on with it happy in the knowledge that my children and partner go out to school and work every day with clean ironed clothes on and come home to a fairly tidy house and nice food'.
  2. 'I do the majority of the chores if not nearly all because i am the one who is here all day.... so its my Job'.

B. WOMEN ARE MORE VULNERABLE IF A RELATIONSHIP BREAKS UP

  1. 'women have more to lose'.
  2. 'at some level women know that putting up with less than a 50% partner is still less work than ending the relationship'.

C. FEMINIST ARGUMENTS

  1. 'The competition over tidiness and cleaning is just another way to keep women trapped in their role'.
  2. 'Why do women put up with doing it? Because they are the ones who are judged on it'.
  3. 'things won't really change till women say f* off! i'm not bloody skivvying around the house whilst you sit on the sofa'.
  4. 'we seem to have come right back around to needing to focus on consciousness raising. i don't think the whole cath kidston cup cakes and bunting backlash has helped'.
  5. 'the privileged don't tend to wake up one day and surrender their privilege'.

D. EQUALITY IS VITAL (EXTENSION OF FEMINIST ARGUMENTS)
10. 'I would find it unacceptable if a partner didn't pull their weight'.
11. 'once I go back to work, all the chores will be split down the middle - no way will I accept more than 50% of the home-work!'

E. THE WORK JUST HAS TO GET DONE

  1. 'a lot of women still do the "lions share" because they are fulfilling a need for efficiency'.

F. MEN DON'T DO CHORES BECAUSE THEY ARE BORING

  1. 'DHs list is exactly the same as it was 3 months ago when I started it whilst recovering from major surgery'.
  2. 'Chores are boring because they are repetitive and easy to do'.

G MY OTHER HALF DOES IT BECAUSE I DON'T CARE ABOUT IT (A KIND OF EXTENSION OF FEMINIST ARGUMENTS!)
12. 'he has higher standards than me so I do the basics and he does the extra bits'.
16. 'I think life is too short to spend on housework'.
17. 'My attitude is that if he wants it to be that clean he can do it!'

TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2014 10:22

ooh i got quoted quite a few times in that summary Grin

nice to see it laid out like that. good work kirk.

TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2014 10:25

i'd add the deliberate and effective demonisation and economic sanctioning of single mothers into it and the half hearted or non existent enforcement of child maintenance - fits with my other point about women having 'more to lose' but still important as it is a big part of how women are reminded of that potential loss and kept putting up with marriage despite the well evidenced effects is has upon their mental health.

vezzie · 15/10/2014 14:02

Kirkegaard, you missed one - that men inflict penalties on women who make concerted efforts to get them to take part in chores, penalties that drain women's energy, such that the cost / benefit analysis that the woman does on "do it myself" vs "get him to do it" comes out in favour of "do it myself". this is a separate point from the "ultimate penalty" (ha) of the potential end of the relationship

Honeybadger, you are right - women are deliberately kept dependent on men by a variety of economic means (ideologically driven, the enforcement is economic)

TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2014 15:08

ah but let's just pretend it's about pink brains and blue brains and how tidy us girly types are. those of us who cba to tidy the house must be strange abhorrent anomalies and us single mums are just deviant sponging types trying to bring down society.

Greengrow · 15/10/2014 21:01

No way would it ever be a woman's job here. We are a long line of feminists in this family. Men do not take advantage of us. The home is fair and tasks gender neutral.

Is it also baout money and power? I earned 10x what the children's father does. If you earn an awful lot as a woman life is heaps better at home and work and in life. If you earn pin money and give up work you are more likely to be walked all over.

Kirkegaard · 16/10/2014 14:48

VEZZIE, you're right, I actually missed a few comments, so am continuing my categorization efforts here:

IDEOLOGICAL ANALYSIS

  1. 'the deliberate and effective demonisation and economic sanctioning of single mothers'.
  2. 'half hearted or non existent enforcement of child maintenance'.

*I see this demonisation of single mothers as one strand in the demonising of mothers in general: wealthy married mothers who do not work are also demonised in our culture.

DOMESTIC ECONOMICS ANALYSIS (derivative of and modelled on economic power within a relationship)

  1. 'Very few households budget adequately for cleaning and childcare because very few households can afford it.'

*What's the causality here? Domestic labour is feminised because it is unpaid, therefore it is quite literally the Cinderella of the labour spectrum. It is invisible AS labour, and the necessary underside OF labour (if homes are disordered, it has an impact on capacity of people to perform labour outside the home). Because it is unpaid, it is profoundly difficult for either men or women acculturated in this society to accept that it needs to be paid for at all. Its value is directly linked to its lack of remuneration.

DYNAMIC PSYCHOLOGY: PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BULLYING WITHIN RELATIONSHIPS

  1. 'men inflict penalties on women who make concerted efforts to get them to take part in chores, penalties that drain women's energy, such that the cost / benefit analysis that the woman does on "do it myself" vs "get him to do it" comes out in favour of "do it myself".'

*I agree with this, and the only way to end this is to name it when it is happening, to out it. This definitely risks tensions and arguments, but it's absolutely crucial.

INDIVIDUAL PSYCHOLOGY: INTERNALIZED PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BULLYING OR MASOCHISM

  1. 'I seem to have trapped myself in the classic position of having to 'do it all'. Of being the perfect wife, perfect mother and maintaining the perfect home, meanwhile having the high flying career expected of me. The pressure is enormous. I like my life, but it exhausts me. You wouldn't be able to tell from the outside apart from the fact that I've gone up two dress sizes since I went back to work. I'm mostly too exhausted to exercise and it feels like just one more area that demands perfection of me. It's a trap of my own making, I certainly don't blame my DH for it. I don't even think he fully recognises the trap I'm in.'

*@Littlebluebutterflies: I feel so angry, sad and sorry for this commentator. Those two dress sizes sound to me like the suppressed desire TO blame the DH. It is not a trap of your own making, it takes at least two people in a household to set this kind of trap. You must take steps, one at a time, to delegate, assert your needs for your own time and space, and to take some pressure off yourself.

EQUALITY ACHIEVED THROUGH ROLE REVERSAL (linked to economic imperatives)

  1. 'Having swapped roles helps us understand what it is like working out of home/being the SAHP for the other person which helps'.

*Again I agree with this comment: wife/life swap definitely drives it home to unwilling partners what is truly involved in keeping the domestic show on the road.

EQUALITY ACHIEVED THROUGH DESIRE FOR AFFECTION (may be linked to earning power)

  1. 'his attitude is that if he does the cleaning while I do my marking we'll have more time together when we've finished.'
  • This is the most positive note I have heard, and to me goes to the heart of this debate, which is that what is truly at stake is the happiness of men and women, their desire for love from each other, and the sadness and disappointment if that hoped-for trust is lost. This is about marriage, and love, not the washing up. The washing up is the painful symbol of what is really important.

clambers off soap box. Gives it a little buff in passing.

TheHoneyBadger · 17/10/2014 08:49

i think the 'internalised' aspect is really important and does need 'outing' (hence my comments about being still in need of 'consciousness raising type work). reality is that even if no one external IS actually criticising the woman for the state of the house it doesn't matter because the message is internalised and transmitted generation to generation by what is seen rather than what is said because whatever women SAY about equality to their sons and daughters has minimal effect compared to what they see.

TheHoneyBadger · 17/10/2014 08:57

i also wish i'd kept the great article that did the rounds on here a few years back about how it was with the advent of mining towns and sickness among men and children etc that the model of needing a housewife and cleanliness etc came into being (probably a very poor summary but it was a very interesting analysis and opened eyes as to how contrived the model was actually and how women and children working in the working classes at least was the norm until very recently).

in a broader economic perspective i'm also interested in the way the more stuff we acquire the more work we create so, for example, YES we now have automatic washing machines but that's kind of offset by the fact that many people also have huge wardrobes and change their clothes several times a day. and yes we have hoovers and steam cleaners and yada yada but the expectation of how clean the house should be goes up with those acquisitions.

i suppose we should also include the commercialisation of cleaning for want of a better phrase and the littany of products and endless advertising for them that we are subjected to being told we need to own and use and how that advertising ties in with the internalised issues of 'worth' and housework being connected, and the framing of a 'good' mother as one who sits around fretting about how to get her whites whiter.

vezzie · 17/10/2014 10:56

Yes, TheHoney. I often think about that when I read the threads on here where people affect (surely it is affected?) disgusted outrage that people don't wash several outfits, sheets and towels daily. (I still remember reading about one family who all wore 3 or 4 outfits every day, all washed daily: PJs, school or work clothes, gym stuff and evening lounge wear. It blew my mind but people on MN are always making out that this sort of thing is normal)

the first person who had a twin tub must have thought they were laughing. "Ha ha! I will do a week's washing in one morning! And then I will have time to read a book". Sorry, no love, the rules have changed. You have to do an old month's worth of washing every day now.

Greengrow · 17/10/2014 11:07

Also it may just depend on the couple. If you are both feminists it is easier (many of us will not marry men who aren't feminists and that has been the case for 30 or 40 years not just now).

Also in our case he was a bit older and owned a house and I was just finishing my post grade/been a student. So he was the one showing me his house, his systems for drying his shirts, how to work a washing machine, what an iron is, how a cooker works.

Also it's just personality - both of us were tidy and efficient so no conflicts. Some couples are both total slobs and get on well or both super clean. As long as you are the same it's fine. So again it's all about due diligence before marriage - not marrying that lazy oaf or sexist pig or conversely the man much tidier than you are whom you say has OCD because you're the lazy oath or slattern in that case.

Some women only have power at home. They earn very little and have nothing in life at which they excel so pretending being able to change nappies well or keep the bath clean is some kind of wonderful role useless men cannot do is their only way to get any kind of power on this planet. They take huge pleasure in running their man down and saying he is useless at home. Their sexist man who earns more than they do also takes pleasure in showing off to his friends about how much his wife spends of his money and how hd could never do this wonderful domestic job she does which is much harder than his man job and she is an angel. Ugh.

TheHoneyBadger · 17/10/2014 14:21

sorry but i don't like the inference there that either you are super clean and diligent about housework or you are a slob - i find that is the exact kind of message that women can do with getting away from.

nor do i like the 'women who don't earn much excel at nothing' Confused and Sad

a person's worth is not determined by how much they earn or how clean their house is in my book.

TheHoneyBadger · 17/10/2014 14:22

no i've read that paragraph again and it comes off as even misogynistic on second reading.

Greengrow · 17/10/2014 15:21

However my general point is valid - that two people who are tidy tend to get on well and two who aren't again won't row over the state of the house. It is the differences which make it harder.

The issue that women who 10x what their husbands do tend not to over do chores at home is very sound. If everyone in the home knows you are king pin and earn a fortune they are not likely to jeopardise your career by expecting you to spend hours house cleaning.

As Miriam Gonzalez said last week all she and most of us want and I am lucky enough to have - is "just what men have". Go for that simple thin and life is good (she out earns Nick Clegg obviously). Money and power and domestic servitude are at the heart of a lot of these house cleaning and balance of power at home issues.

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