Why is society so unsupportive of high-achieving 'power mums'?

[KateMumsnet]

Nigel Farage has hurled himself into the debate about equality at work with a typically thoughtful, modern and nuanced view: City women with families are "worth less" than their male counterparts. UKIP-madness-as-usual, you think. Until you look at polling data which reveals what society really thinks about women in senior roles - and are forced to wonder whether his comments are smarter than they first look.

At a Jericho Chambers debate last week, chaired by Zoe Williams of the Guardian, the research company Populus shared a resoundingly miserable take on public views of women in top-level jobs.

Of the 2,000 people they asked, very nearly half think that our society has suffered as more women have worked out of the home. A whopping 57% agreed that 'when it comes to the work-life balance, women can't have it all, however much they may want it'.

So while many of us blithely assume that everyone sane wants broadly equal numbers of women and men at senior levels of business and government, we may not be right - especially if the women in question happen to have children.

A year ago, fed up with a corporate world of retro alpha men, I set out to interview some ‘power mums’ and ‘power dads’ about the choices they've made to get their senior jobs, for Management Today. I was looking for potential role models - but it wasn't that straightforward. Yes, the mums do generally love their jobs. But they also work long hours, miss their kids, feel quite stressed a lot of the time, feel judged at the school gate and judged at work - and most concede that they are surviving rather than thriving.

In contrast, the dads feel no social censure, express few regrets and are free from the racing mental ticker-tape of things they must remember (‘online shop, wash PE kit, plan birthday party, book haircuts, cancel swimming….’) which even the women with the most help keep on a loop. Unlike one of the dads, none of the mums has yet confessed to inventing breakfast meetings to escape the chaos of Cheerio throwing.

The response to the publication of those interviews has, if anything, been even more striking - particularly the judgement cast upon the female high-fliers by other women. On Facebook, a woman commented on a power mum with four children and a long commute: "She may be powerful but she is no mother"; an ambitious 20-something friend said: "when I read that they only see their kids two nights a week, I think 'shame on you' - and then I hate myself for thinking it".

In our frank debate last week, the self-confessed 'enlightened' CEO of Costcutter Supermarkets Group, Darcy Wilson-Rymer, was brutal on the business realities of the subject. Four-day weeks don't work - because women end up doing five days for 20% less pay, and then getting frustrated and doing something else. Job shares can work, but are not ideal at the most senior levels.

After the debate, a woman who read about it sent us an infuriated email, arguing that we were missing the point: "it's actually NOT about the Power Mums who have made it in their careers by getting up at 5am, working out, working a 10-hour day, getting back late feeling guilty and employing loads of staff to help them through. Its about the average professional woman who can work maybe 20 to 30 hours a week but who doesn't want power or even career progression”.

Which is of course brilliant for everyone it suits. But - news flash for Mr Farage - some women do want equality and power and progression. Even some who have had a baby, or two or three. And if the men work 70 hours a week and the women half that, it won't happen. Find me a FTSE-100 CEO who works 30 hours, and surely we'll find an exquisitely wrapped carriage clock ticking under their PA's desk.

We can spend all the time we like dissecting equality and discrimination, childcare options and our hours culture - but until society puts quality of life and families on a more equal footing with business needs, this is just how it is.

So until that time - unless we agree with Nigel Farage and his mates - we need to be supportive of the women who are making the sacrifices to get to the top, and ensure that those women are heard. If they are not, what hope do we have that our daughters will face less stark choices?

What does having it all even mean?

Society is unsupportive if neither parent is much with their child, especially a younger child.

Mimi, your and Bonsoir's argument is why I feel we need a societal shift to change anything at all.
Those who are child-free whether by choice or circumstance will also need a younger generation growing up to provide services as they get older. Children are ALL our children, not just mine or yours. This is not an individual problem and it is profoundly unfair that it's seen as a 'women's problem' or a 'family problem'.

And yy, 'having it all' is a stupid, misleading phrase.

I liked the aforementioned 'life-friendly' policies that are needed; not 'family-friendly'.

But families still have choices individually too.

Pacificdogswood I certainly agree with you that this should not be perceived as a 'woman's problem'. I don't think anyone, aside from the predictable bigots(who will take nitpick over everyone elses choices too), would mind if mum was the high-flier and the dad was the one who was more committed to spending time with the kids. The 'it takes a village' approach is old and overused though - when used by high-fliers it almost invariably means that they want someone else to watch out for their kids, quite often without returning the favour.

The question should be:

"During the years you have dependents, how much should you allow your income earning work to impact on the time you spend with your dependents and your ability to manage your household?"

I don't think there is a straightforward or universal answer to this question, but

"As a mother, how much should you allow your work to impact on the time you spend with your children", is certainly the wrong question - yet it is asked over and over again.

as a mother

(And also you could ask, could you pay better attention to your formatting?)

I certainly have never faced any criticism at all and just embarrassing comments of much praise which of course in itself is sexist. If you have an equal marriage and both do as much at home then it is no more wonderful that a woman does very well at work than if a man were to do so. It is only because of old fashioned sexist attitudes that anyone would think it wonderful that a woman can succeed any more than it is not wonderful if a man actually looks after his children at weekends or cleans the back of the loo on a regular and enduring basis.

However it's changing for the better. In the last 2 years the word feminism has ceased to be a dirty word for many women and men again and that is lovely and secondly more and more women are getting promoted at work and taking decisions with their other half as to childcare and the like. Also most new work and jobs can be done by email and that enables fathers (and also mothers) to lean in whether they are at home or work which can ease working lives. I was working early yesterday morning (Saturday) but I was in the house with children sleeping upstairs and emailing what I had to do. That is much easier than 20 years ago or 25 when you had to be physically present, find a secretary who worked the night or weekend shift to type the stuff and you had had to take an hour's train journey to get into the office.

Lean in (if you want do well) and whether you are male or female and you're okay. I would also suggest those of us who are parents and work do a lot of leaning in to our children. I adored the hours i spent breastfeeding and cuddling the baby and the time I spend now with the teenagers. Just because you are working full time whether male or female does not mean you choose never to see your children and spend no time with them. I had a lot of children because I love them and being with them. I have never felt the fact I work means they are neglected and nor do most men. It is just a nice balance - work plus home. Mind you it's 10.20am and only 1 is up yet so it's absolutely dead easy to work and have a family whether you are male or female when they get easier. When there were babies you often get the 5.30am starts to Sundays. I remember it well.

If I had daughters, I would be honest with them, you cannot have it all. You will burn out by trying to be a good mum and trying to be at the top of your career whilst trying to raise a young family.

If I had daughters I would tell them to choose a career that will allow them to get good experience before having children but will allow them to become self employed (own business, consulting, etc) when the time comes.

I have a friend that did just this. She was in marketing, always knew she wanted a family, so worked really hard at the beginning of her career, thinking ahead she made lots of contacts in the market, then setup her own business with a colleague. Now she has children and she choses projects as when she is able to work on them earning mega bucks.

My sister is a very successful dentist (not in this country). Worked really hard for someone else for 10 years, build up her reputation. Setup her own practice with 3 friends. 20 years later she is extremely successful but is also able to send valuable time with her teenage daughters.

"spend valuable....."

Because you can't be a 'power mum' without relying on other women on close to NMW to do your dirty work.

Nursery workers, nanny, CM, cleaner, woman who does your ironing. Granny.

Never mind the cleaners and junior admin. in the office. Their hair dresses, nail technicians, dry cleaning staff.

Behind any smart together business women is a whole host of forgotten badly paid other women.

Why are we ambivalent towards high-achieving working women with children? Because, for many of us, they have managed to achieve something unattainable. It is something many of us hanker after, but will not achieve, because our circumstances will not allow it. Talking about "choice" is somewhat disingenuous because that implies that you are able to follow any course of action you like. This is not the case for most of us: having children is a choice happily made but once done, cannot be opted out of. Any further choices are made with the children at the centre of the decision-making process. They need us to give them our time and energy. They do not bring themselves up. The time and energy we have left for other things such as work is determined by the amount of support we have from others. Many of have support from parents; some from paid childcare, or partners.Many of us have nothing, and cannot justify the cost or hassle of reliable childcare.

The reality for most of us is to muddle along, doing the best we can under the circumstances. We try our best, but are still compared with - and compare ourselves-with an ideal which is unattainable for most of us.

We do not admire this woman, we do not applaud her. We resent her! We are made painfully aware of her achievements, which only serves to rub our noses in our own perceived failure.

It is no longer enough to be 'just' a mother. But this view has not just been perpetuated by sexist men and their misogynistic posturing. This is a view that has been mainly created by women for other women. True equality at work is an utopian vision which will never be realised. We can go round in circles for ever discussing why women with children are paid less, or feature less in the boardroom.

What we need to do, as women and as a society, is to accept the situation for what it is and recognise that being a mother is something that cannot be changed. We need to take pride in our achievements as parents, whether working or not. We do not need to be beaten about the head with visions of perfection achieved by the (very few) who "have it all".

I knew a local woman once who established a fairly successful small toy shop. She was all over the press impressing everyone with her achievements. And she had kids! Wow! How did she do it?

She had her parents living with her, that's how! Funnily enough, she kept that fact quiet....

I agree that the "it takes a village" or "I want my DC to be part of the social fabric" stance adopted by some people whose lives are too busy to devote much time to their own DC can be very annoying. "It takes a village of other people to whom no payment or reciprocation is due..."

I find it so sad that yet again as mothers we are seemingly forced to choose sides and fit ourselves into boxes-just so others can criticise us. Why is it seemingly always about condemning what mothers do? Too much work, not working, putting children in childcare, home educating!! Can we do anything right? It's no wonder depression is on the up!
Can we not accept that we all make choices and that these will all have been given thought and consideration for what is right for our particular circumstance. We may not be happy with it, but we will have thought it through and doing our best to reconcile ourselves with that choice. We do not need more guilt thrown at us surely????

Hang in there the housewives also access nmw jobs hairdresser,retail,childcare
Your partners access nmw catering,coffee shops.accessing nmw isnt solely a powermum activity
It's risible to portray working women as lady of manor employing and exploiting the minions

If you're in a spin about nmw you can't pin it in so called power mums

It doesnt make sense to put mums who work in childcare wages up as then they would lose their childcare and not be able to work. Im getting 14.5k to be a nursery manager but then another 10k+ for the free childcare so if my wages went up I would lose that and wouldnt be able to pursue a career.

So called dirty work is legitimate and arises from demand,meets a need
Those jobs circulate money,employ people.far from dirty work.in fact necessary work
It's snippy to dismiss someone employment as dirty work. What is clean work out of interest?

Yes WRF to bankers what is clean work? There are countless numbers of people who are sometimes not even on the lowest rung of wage earning. as we know slave labour is not unheard of.

But now we're getting on to the capitalist system which IMO should be much better regulated and the vast profits and exploitation of the environment of some people needs to be addressed urgently.

Sorry I meant to put 'and' of some people.

But I dont call it an achievement if the so called achievement means that both parents combined just about only manage to get their young child to bath bed and story.
I call that a failure. For the child. As do many many others it seems.

Gosh, it's all very sexist. Why would the same comments as fedup said not be made of men?
Also let us turn this quote from above around
"If I had sons, I would be honest with them, you cannot have it all. You will burn out by trying to be a good father and trying to be at the top of your career whilst trying to raise a young family."

The point is in many marriage where women earn a fortune the men do as much sa the women at home. in marriages where women find the balancing hard is when they are married to arch sexists who never lift a finger at home and would never in a month of Sundays find and interview nannies or childminders as that is "women's work" in their unreconstructed sexist eyes. Avoid such men.

This is not about capitalism and right and left, it is about fairness at home and work for men and women.

The whole 'lean in' advice really annoys me as it is shorthand for 'lean in, listen and observe how we men do it, then be more like us and you will succeed!'

I would far rather lean out and get these male dominated work places to see that there are other ways of doing things that don't involve 70 hour weeks!

I watch my fellow senior employees competing as to who has put in the most hours when really the question they should be debating is who has been more effective in the past week! Who has done a good top quality job or sold the most work or had the happiest clients. But oh no, the big swinging dick competition is about hours again!

I have not faced any issues with other parents about my working hours or job but I have employed an army if people to keep our show on the road. Nannies are very good at reciprocating favours from other parents I find and indeed I think we were always 'up' overall in that regard.

After ten years in a 'top' job though and with teenage children about to take public exams, I am looking forward to seeing things from the other side of the fence!

I don't agree with that interpretation of lean in. It just means work hard which most men and women do if they want to get to the top (although many men and women have no aim to get to the top at all so it's not for them anyway). If you work hard to do well. It's pretty simple.

spectacular, I think I lurve you.

Part of the problem is that the 'village' has not quite understand that whether individuals have children or not, the whole 'village' needs children.

Commander6 I agree