Why is society so unsupportive of high-achieving 'power mums'?

[KateMumsnet]

Nigel Farage has hurled himself into the debate about equality at work with a typically thoughtful, modern and nuanced view: City women with families are "worth less" than their male counterparts. UKIP-madness-as-usual, you think. Until you look at polling data which reveals what society really thinks about women in senior roles - and are forced to wonder whether his comments are smarter than they first look.

At a Jericho Chambers debate last week, chaired by Zoe Williams of the Guardian, the research company Populus shared a resoundingly miserable take on public views of women in top-level jobs.

Of the 2,000 people they asked, very nearly half think that our society has suffered as more women have worked out of the home. A whopping 57% agreed that 'when it comes to the work-life balance, women can't have it all, however much they may want it'.

So while many of us blithely assume that everyone sane wants broadly equal numbers of women and men at senior levels of business and government, we may not be right - especially if the women in question happen to have children.

A year ago, fed up with a corporate world of retro alpha men, I set out to interview some ‘power mums’ and ‘power dads’ about the choices they've made to get their senior jobs, for Management Today. I was looking for potential role models - but it wasn't that straightforward. Yes, the mums do generally love their jobs. But they also work long hours, miss their kids, feel quite stressed a lot of the time, feel judged at the school gate and judged at work - and most concede that they are surviving rather than thriving.

In contrast, the dads feel no social censure, express few regrets and are free from the racing mental ticker-tape of things they must remember (‘online shop, wash PE kit, plan birthday party, book haircuts, cancel swimming….’) which even the women with the most help keep on a loop. Unlike one of the dads, none of the mums has yet confessed to inventing breakfast meetings to escape the chaos of Cheerio throwing.

The response to the publication of those interviews has, if anything, been even more striking - particularly the judgement cast upon the female high-fliers by other women. On Facebook, a woman commented on a power mum with four children and a long commute: "She may be powerful but she is no mother"; an ambitious 20-something friend said: "when I read that they only see their kids two nights a week, I think 'shame on you' - and then I hate myself for thinking it".

In our frank debate last week, the self-confessed 'enlightened' CEO of Costcutter Supermarkets Group, Darcy Wilson-Rymer, was brutal on the business realities of the subject. Four-day weeks don't work - because women end up doing five days for 20% less pay, and then getting frustrated and doing something else. Job shares can work, but are not ideal at the most senior levels.

After the debate, a woman who read about it sent us an infuriated email, arguing that we were missing the point: "it's actually NOT about the Power Mums who have made it in their careers by getting up at 5am, working out, working a 10-hour day, getting back late feeling guilty and employing loads of staff to help them through. Its about the average professional woman who can work maybe 20 to 30 hours a week but who doesn't want power or even career progression”.

Which is of course brilliant for everyone it suits. But - news flash for Mr Farage - some women do want equality and power and progression. Even some who have had a baby, or two or three. And if the men work 70 hours a week and the women half that, it won't happen. Find me a FTSE-100 CEO who works 30 hours, and surely we'll find an exquisitely wrapped carriage clock ticking under their PA's desk.

We can spend all the time we like dissecting equality and discrimination, childcare options and our hours culture - but until society puts quality of life and families on a more equal footing with business needs, this is just how it is.

So until that time - unless we agree with Nigel Farage and his mates - we need to be supportive of the women who are making the sacrifices to get to the top, and ensure that those women are heard. If they are not, what hope do we have that our daughters will face less stark choices?

stealth. I have been very careful to include both parents in my posts, if you care to look back at them.

I have also said that we need some high flying women.
If my posts are not going to be read properly by several posters here, there is no point in posting. As several of you, at least 3, now seem to have hidden agendas, and are not really reading properly.

So goodbye for now.

Agree with Commander, I don't think fathers working in a long-hours, presenteeism culture are worthy role models. My husband has opted for a different career path as have many fathers.

Commander - so this: "Agree that some women need to be in higher positions in society. But if it has to be the mainly single ones [and there are many of them], then so be it." wasn't you then ? Because that sounds pretty bloody sexist to me. I haven't, I had to admit, read every single one of your posts.

I'm not a power mum either, I currently work part time nightshifts in a public sector call centre while studying for a second degree. I'm one of the crap non achievers no one gives a toss about

From my observations things like maternity leave (up to a year)seem to have less effect on those women who are at the top of the tree. They tend to come back and slot back into place fairly easily. Usually because they have one person who has repaced them on a temporary basis.

It is those people (both men and women) who are a bit further down the tree that struggle as a year is a longtime in a workplace and oftenwork gets reallocated, projects finish and new ones start. I know quite a few ambitious women who are horrified by this and spend hours telling everyone how unfair it is for women. I am always surprised they haven't noticed before as they spent their childless years taking the advantages offered when other women went on maternity leave- it's like they were just amazed it happened to them. Secondly it's just as difficult when men are off for extended periods- sabbaticals, illness whatever - they too find themselves out of sync when they return. Once both men and women can get shared leave then things will be more equal and it will be just as shit for men returning to the workplace.

But if it has to be the mainly single ones [and there are many of them]

Is a really, really depressing view

Race comes into it because it is as important as sex. We need the voices that impact upon society to reflect society.

At present, they don't.

Those voices are overwhelmingly white male middle class.

And no chip. I'm not one of those pesky uppity chippy black people!!!

But again, I am not narrow minded enough to think that it isn't important to have people who aint white in power, even though it probably doesn't affect me personally.

Men can try to be role-models for better working practices and it doesn't mean the women in their organisations pick up on it. My DP, whose business employs many more women than men, and has a majority of women in his senior management team, always leaves the office in time to get home for family dinner, has lunch with his DC, leaves the office for school meetings etc. But he has a hard time getting all the women (including mothers) in his head office to follow his lead - some do and others are seemingly hard-wired for presenteeism.

I don't think I qualify as a power mum, not working in the city and no nanny/housekeeper, but I do have a squillion air miles (all earned in the back of the plane), work ft (with conference calls at weird hours), travel lots, and took a relatively short mat leave.

I don't expect anyone to support dh and me, we don't have any family help at all, and a cleaner (who works for herself, chooses to clean as she likes to pick and choose when and who she works for) 3 hours a week.

What I would welcome is not getting negative comments about my travel, and the automatic question of 'but what about your ds' when I'm away, and 'how does your dh feel about you travelling'. No one ever asks dh these things when he's away

CMOT my DH is most definitely a power dad.

And he says he has never ever been asked how he manages it, whether he misses the DC when he travels, whether he feels guilty yadda yadda.

In fact he is roundly trumpeted by all the mums we know as a Good Father.

Yet women in his position are treated with suspicion and judgement. It's sexism pure and simple. No two ways.

Snap, CMOT. In every respect.

Maybe in France people are so accustomed to sending their DC away for long periods (to grandparents or residential holidays) and have been doing this forever that the idea of children being apart from their mothers when the mothers travel for work doesn't seem to raise an eyebrow here (provided that the DC are being cared for and aren't left alone).

strealth. Was my post sexist? No idea. But if you say it is, then perhaps it is.

Ubik. I care about what you are doing.

But yes, if it is mainly single women who become high powered, or those who are married or who have partners who do more childcare than the other one, then that is ok.
That seems to be what the majority in society think.

What I so just really want to write throughout this thread is
"think of the children. And that does not mainly mean materially".

If women think that presenteeism is important then they must be getting the subliminal message that it is true in that culture/environment. The group of us who run our team/ business have a view of we don't care where you do your work from as long as it gets done. Hence all the parents work one day from home, others have a day off to a degree and one girl is doing a yoga course on the side. We have one person commutes in from 200 miles away, 3 days in London, Mondays and Fridays working from home. When my admin assistant was struggling with childcare costs I let her work from home in a way that was timed around her child's naps until the 3yo funding kicked in. All these are examples of successful and well regarded people, many of whom have had promotions while having the atypical working patterns. This happens primarily because the leadership in my team are female, we work with great guys and are very opinionated about the culture and "feel" of the team from a diversity perspective.

I know of 2 doctors married to each other. [this may out me but who cares].
Both the male and female work 3 days each at the same surgery. They have childcare for the overlapping day.
The arrangement suits them both fine, and the child or children are looked after by one or other parent except for 1 day a week.
Genius all round if you ask me.

What CMOT said. I am in the Far East in a couple of weeks time. I have crammed my diary so that I fly Monday late night and back at dawn on Friday. Dh is immediately off to the US for the week. The timings of the visit is such that there will be a parent in the country both weeks. Yet, some women will more focus on my dcs welfare the week I am away but not the week dh is away. Just sexism, pure and simple.

But commander - your conception of what constitutes good childcare - biological parents caring for children, is really based on 20th century western conceptions of 'the family,' this 1950's ideal came about because women were supposed to return to the home so that men could have jobs after the war.

Research shows children need a nurturing environment and a consistent carer in the very early years but this does not need to be the parent. Certainly there are different models of care shown throughout the world.

This is probably rather pedestrian but if you watch Danish drama like 'The Bridge' you will be constantly struck by how many women with children in positions of power are depicted with no song and dance about it. It is really, really refreshing. And that country has a very good childcare system which promotes equality.

Basically if I had had access to affordable good quality childcare I would not be working in a call centre now. It is a long road back to a career.

People are not only subject to the culture of their organisation - which is why you can get people reacting quite differently within the same organisation, especially when it is large and/or multi-sited. They are not all subject to the same forces. You can have someone in your senior management team who is working with suppliers in an industry where long hours and lots of out-of-work socialising is the norm, and that person to some extent will need to meet the demands of their suppliers' industry. And then you can have a commercial director who is working internally and has more leverage to set their working patterns according to the company's culture.

novice. I do think that people are beginning to see your point.

Ubik. I am afraid that I amd proably others have instincts that we take more notice of than research.
The op is asking for opinions. I am giving them.

Women at the top of their professions are not supported because it goes against societal norms. Many people prefer to keep women in their place and whole industries have been built around this.

In my experience the least supportive are women who have decided not to attempt to climb to the top of the career ladder. They can be the most vitriolic in criticising others choices and its hard to understand why. I can only guess that its insecurity. On the other hand I know very few mums who are as critical of the choice to stay home.

I don't think its necessarily how society reacts that is the problem but natural instincts. I find it hard to go away for long periods of time without DS. My work requires that I do. I try and reconcile the two - i work out my travel very carefully to maximise useful time away and minimise disruption to DS. It is difficult not to find your self judging other people by the same standards- even though I know that it is not a logical standard- so if I know another woman is on a business trip and maybe staying an extra night I find myself thinking that it is odd/not desirable - and although I try and think it is good that she is relaxed enough to do so that is not my immediate reaction. Equally I don't instinctively feel the same about a man doing it.

This issue is ruling my life at the moment. I earn more than DH so I can't just stop. Reducing my hours, if at all possible, puts me in the box labelled "next years saving". DH works unsociable and unpredictable hours, so its me that has to rush everywhere slightly late. I am not hugely concerned what other parents think, but school give no ground whatsoever. That irks me a lot. They could offer an alternative to "popping into the school office at 9 o'clock", they could stick DS's water bottle in his bag when he has forgotten for a week, he is 5. They need to give a weekends notice if we need to bring stuff in, I can't go shopping during the day.

I would like to get in crawler lane for a few years but stay with the same employer. Stupidly, they are very short of people at my level, but I feel like I'm going to have to leave, my options at work are very limited.

Other countries do have to have sorted this out better for sure. My Finnish colleagues have no culture of presenteesim, and male and females equally will announce that a meeting has a hard stop as they will be leaving to pick up children.

I was in a meeting in Sweden last week where a senior, male, consultant brought his (mildly) ill toddler with him. No one commented at all, and it was treated as completely normal.

Dh thinks its hilarious that school mums think he's amazing for having weekend play dates when I'm not around btw. Or that, he can manage to get ds to school with the correct things everyday

tomverlaine none of that is "natural instincts" - it's all societal conditioning.