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Draconian new 'Asbo' laws will demonise teenagers

47 replies

MumsnetGuestBlogs · 25/10/2013 15:12

It’s a rare sight these days, children playing in the street. But a couple of months ago two ten-year-olds made the most of their newly tarmaced street in Thames Ditton, Surrey. They rollerskated on it. Their friends joined in. One of the local mothers said she “met a whole load of new neighbours - a real community spirit has come out of this”.

Then, without so much as a knock on the door, the local police delivered a leaflet claiming complaints had been received and “playing or other sports in the street is a criminal offence particularly where the activity has caused (people) annoyance, alarm or distress”.

Happily, on this occasion in the face of local uproar, the police changed their stance but it was a sign of things to come. New laws that are before parliament now will make it very difficult for teenagers just to be teenagers, doing normal teenage stuff, like ‘hanging out’. According to the new laws, if a policeman or someone from the local council judges that a 10 year old is “capable of causing nuisance and annoyance” the teenager can have a legal injunction slapped on them. This could ban them from skateboarding in the street or restrict where they can go. If a 14 year old flouts or forgets these rules, he or she could end up in prison for three months.

Already children spend much more time indoors or in cars than we did at the same age. Youth clubs are being closed thanks to cuts. Distrust prevails between many teenagers and the police and, too often, older people distrust teenagers too. So I’m worried that this new law will make matters worse. Teenagers want to hang around in groups, shout and yell a bit sometimes, and play games. But if the police gain Draconian new powers to outlaw normal behaviour, the message we send to teenagers is ‘be afraid of being yourself’. Anyone with teenage children knows how insidious this would be to happy development.

Some teenagers do go too far and make life pretty hellish for their neighbours. Playing loud music late at night, scribbling graffiti on walls and knocking on doors again and again can really annoy. But the answer isn’t to slap an injunction on the perpetrators and so push them into the legal system at a young age. Police, parents and local residents need to get teenagers to understand that what seems harmless to them, is blighting someone else’s life. I don’t think the children in Thames Ditton were in that league - but surely a more sensible approach would have been for police to have a quiet word, or mediated between the complainers and the kids.

The new laws are a rehash of the old ASBOs, but the new definition of anti-social behaviour is much wider. New Labour brought in ASBOs as a measure to prevent troublesome behaviour. Originally they were not supposed to be applied to under 18 year olds. But they were introduced in 1998 applying to children as young as 10 and 40% of all ASBOs have been put on children.

They don’t seem to have worked – over two thirds of the ASBOs imposed on children have been disobeyed. This is hardly surprising since ASBOs enforced strict and quite ridiculous rules. A 13 year old from South Shields was banned from riding his bike and seeing four of his best friends for two years, four children in Swansea were threatened with ASBOs for aggressive snowballing, and a 15 year old from Cambridge received an ASBO for persistent “hedge hopping”. Hundreds of children have been imprisoned for breaching their ASBOs, leaving them more likely to be drawn into committing serious crime. But ASBOs were beginning to wane in popularity as police found better ways to deal with the few teenagers who were being genuinely anti-social.

These new laws are likely to open the floodgates to all those who find teenagers “annoying” and want them shut away. I and others are campaigning hard to stop this new law coming in. If you don’t like the proposed law either, talk to your MP, write to your local newspaper or just spread the word.

OP posts:
prissyenglisharriviste · 27/10/2013 18:02

It's got Nowt to do with sex.

Kelly, as a girl I roamed streets and fields without once lobbing rocks or scattering glass. Behaviour has feck all to do with being inside or outside - what a completely bizarre viewpoint.

I roller skated up and down our road for miles, played on my bike, went and built dams at the ford (disused, honest ;-) ) and drew chalk hopscotch in the street.

How merely being allowed outside translates into hooliganism and barbarism is a mystery to me. Perhaps you'd like to explain? Do your children require 24/7 supervision for fear of them lobbing glass at folk? Mine don't. They know exactly how to (and how not to) behave.

prettybird · 27/10/2013 21:15

prissyenglisharriviste - I soooooo agree.

Good behaviour is something that begins at home. I'm not saying that kids can't be led astray - but in general, the principles are inculcated by the parents and it is truly bad influences that override that basic conditioning.

Not everyone has gardens. What about kids who live in tenements (I live in Glasgow where there are lots of them). Are the kids supposed to teleport to the parks? Hmm Or just stay cooped up inside? Confused

We are fortunate enough to have a large garden. However, ds is now 13 and too big to play football or rugby in the garden. He needs to find other ways to release his energy. Now that he's at secondary school, he goes and visits friends. Are they supposed to spend their entire time inside in front of Xboxes? Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Sad

As it happens,I don't mind too much if they do as they are all generally active kids who play rugby both at school and at the weekend and ds also does a lot of cycling, which involves many circuits of the local neighbourhood.

No broken glass or terrorising neighbours.

He would get grounded, not allowed to play rugby or enter any cycle races if there was a sniff of any such anti-social behaviour.

TheOneWithTheHair · 27/10/2013 23:03

I'm fed up of it. Ds1 is 17. He works full time (50 hrs/week). On his days off he likes to see his friends. They mainly listen to music or play computer games at each other's houses.

I can guarantee he will get stopped on his way home every single time. "Where are you going? Where have you come from? What are you doing?"

He's walking from A to B ffs. It feels like harassment sometimes. It also makes me very sad. :(

CarlaBrooni · 27/10/2013 23:42

It's not about children "playing" in the streets. It's about children being idiots/vandals/thugs on the streets. If your child isn't doing anything wrong there's nothing to be worried about.

The police have a truly thankless job these days I think. Can't do right for doing wrong.

prettybird · 28/10/2013 07:55

Have you read the link (and the link within that?) Hmm

This is not about stopping kids who have done bad things - this is about restricting what they might do - without the need for strong evidence of that possibility

Hmm
Marylou2 · 28/10/2013 11:58

I think we're talking about different types of children here. We can't generalise our relatively well-behaved offspring with some of the horrors that are stalking the streets terrifying adults and other children alike. When I hear about toughening up adult criminal justice guidelines I don't assume it's aimed at me any more then I think this innitiative is aimed at my children

morethanpotatoprints · 28/10/2013 12:45

I can see 2 sides to this argument
firstly having the opinion that children should be allowed to play out and in the streets if they are behaving well.
However, being on the receiving end of severe anti social behaviour from around 50 teens, ongoing throughout the summer, something has to be done.
It isn't building new youth clubs because in our case this is what caused the problem.
The nice kids stay inside, the worst type decided to harass everyone on our street and completely demolish all the hard work done by local volunteers in the park.
We have play streets in out neighbourhood, although we are main road and don't. How are they going to stop kids playing in these streets, and also primary dc are on the whole mostly well behaved, it is awful that kids as young as 10 are to be vilified in this way.

morethanpotatoprints · 28/10/2013 12:52

Theonewiththehair

I used to think like you until one day I was happy that my ds1 was stopped.
It was an initiative a few years ago to keep track of local youth in order to combat crime. There were several muggings, a rape, murder and loads of anti social behaviour in our area. My ds1 was stopped and escorted home by the Police, he was 18 and on his way back from a hockey match it was about 10pm, they'd played away Grin.
That night several of his peers had been jumped on exactly where he had been walking and the times would have coincided with him being there. Unfortunately, 2 of the kids were killed, others in coma, trampled, head injuries.
I can't thank that Police Officer enough tbh.

Alisa658 · 28/10/2013 17:44

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prettybird · 28/10/2013 18:24

Existing laws already deal with abusive/criminal behaviour or when people (including children) actually are acting anti-socially, rather than whether they might

What appears to be being proposed here smacks of sloppy and lazy law making and pandering to DM readers.

I'd even go as far as suggesting that it has echoes of 1984's "thought crimes". HmmSad

sunbathe · 28/10/2013 18:40

I would like to see more playgrounds/skate parks, particularly for older teens. They always seem to be forgotten.

What I would like to see ideally, though, is every house having a garden. Communal good play areas as well. Staffed by youth workers, so that kids have got someone to keep an eye out.

prettybird · 28/10/2013 19:19

I can see the point in more "older" play areas sunbathe but I disagree with you about the ideal being every house having a garden.

Not everyone wants a garden. Some people like living in flats. In Glasgow, some of the tenement flats are massive and are fantastic places to bring up a family yet don't have a garden.

Some people don't like gardening, or are happy to go to a local park for their green space.

Also, are you suggesting that couples, who've been happily living in a flat while child free have to move when they have a family? Hmm I don't think that's what you mean - but I do get a sense that you would judge them negatively if they didn't see the need to move to a place with a garden.

TheOneWithTheHair · 28/10/2013 20:10

morethanpotatoprints I'm glad your ds was ok and feel sorry for the ones who were not so lucky. I'm also grateful that the police are around to help escort people home from a trouble spot.

However, what I object to is my ds repeatedly being stopped walking down the street for seemingly no other reason than his age, and being questioned about his business. I would not expect to be stopped (and never have been) so I don't see why he should be.

I do understand the argument about our relatively well behaved children not being the ones this is aimed at but why tar them all with the same brush when it doesn't happen for other age groups in society. And why, oh why, restrict them before there has been any wrong doing in specific cases?

Alad · 28/10/2013 20:33

Asbos are presently not 'slapped on' by the police, but are imposed by a court. Representations can be made to the court to affect the asbo. An asbo is not a criminal sanction, but can have a criminal standard of proof - this means it's higher than civil. An asbo can be thought of as a contract not to do something. They can be very effective. They can also be useless and reoffending is not always caused by a 'bad' asbo but by other factors. There are also examples of stupid Asbos. On balance they can be very effective, when well constructed, implemented, enforced and supported. I'm afraid much of the hyperbole on this thread is poorly informed.

sunbathe · 28/10/2013 22:24

Prettybird, no I just thought, obviously naively, that people would want gardens.

mummsy1981 · 29/10/2013 00:06

I can't believe that they want to bring such a thing in! What r the kids supposed to do? Are they supposed to stay indoors all of the time? When we were younger and might I may add that wasn't THAT long ago we used to hang outside the local shop. There was quite a large group of us and we never caused any harm and nobody bothered with us. People need to realise that they were in fact young once! They played footy in the street, they jumped hedges, they gathered together in groups, they did most of the things kids do today. Just because yes there are a few that can be a pain and act in a manner that is unacceptable not all kids are the same and even those that do annoy people don't need being criminalised as this is not the answer.

GrassIsntGreener · 29/10/2013 08:16

Another ridiculous law that pushes my young family closer to emigration

bemybebe · 30/10/2013 12:15

I reserve my judgement until there is a real prove that the law applied inappropriately. I don't know the details of individual cases cited but having witnessed a large group of about 12-15 yo pelting loaded snowballs at the pedestrians and cars stuck in high snow and physical and phycological damage these snowballs are able to inflict I think it is not quite black and white (there was a young mother running away shielding her toddler from threats and laughter of these children that still makes tears to come up even now Sad ).

I have 4 dsc (all adults now) and my own 18mo. We all spent a lot of time playing outdoors- in the garden, in the parks on holidays...

popperdoodles · 30/10/2013 12:37

ds1 is 14. he is always out and about but doing something. football in the park, mates house, tennis, bike ride. he was brought home by police once for.......playing football in the park! Old lady who lives next door to the park complained! I don't allow him to go to that park anymore, luckily there ate plenty to choose from here.

I really think it's a shame. some people just don't like children and will moan whatever.

Elfhame · 30/10/2013 13:41

I was sitting in my front room watching TV and I heard a bang on my downstairs neighbour's window. I looked outside and no-one was there.

Then I heard it again, and noticed kids were playing in the street outside.

Then the penny dropped - my neighbour was banging on his own window because the noise from the kid's was bothering him. Noise I hadn't even noticed.

He regularly bangs up and shouts at us because he can hear my children playing in their own home at a normal time of the day. He has even reported us to environmental health.

This law will give miserable bastards like him the green light to clear the streets of children and young people for the crime of playing and having a little fun.

DontGiveAwayTheHomeworld · 26/02/2014 11:16

Thinking back to my younger days (also not that long ago) I remember a few older teens we would avoid because they were trouble. There are a few bad apples in every generation, but the majority are well behaved and don't cause problems. I don't see the point of tarring everyone with the same brush.

It's funny really, me and my friends were all "alternative" - dyed hair, piercings, tattoos etc. People would cross the street to avoid us, but we always tried to be considerate towards others, and always offered to help if someone needed it. We picked up dropped shopping, grabbed toddlers who bolted towards roads, pushed broken down cars out of the way of traffic, just because we were raised to be kind and helpful.

DontGiveAwayTheHomeworld · 26/02/2014 11:17

My point being, teenagers aren't all bad, and we shouldn't expect them to be!

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