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Guest Blog: Time to listen to young women - Page 3 is not 'innocuous'

109 replies

KateMumsnet · 30/04/2013 11:11

In today's guest blog Stephanie Arai-Davies, who blogs over at Communicating With Kids, argues that The Sun's Page 3 primes girls to accept being sexually objectified.

What do you think? Is its influence innocuous in comparison to that of internet porn? Or are the two intrinsically linked, as Stephanie suggests? Let us have your thoughts on the thread - and if you blog on this issue don't forget to post your URL.

"Last week, the Girl Guides made an eloquently simple statement about why they support the No More Page 3 campaign. I think it's time we gave these young women our serious attention.

The objection I still hear from some parents is this: 'Why are you so bothered about Page 3? It's very innocent compared to online porn - why don't you campaign about that?'

But Page 3 is far from innocuous. Yes, our 'raunch culture' already contains endless images of sexualised women - but Page 3 is unique in its purpose of providing sexual titillation as an end in itself. The model's 'object-status' is reinforced by the juxtaposition with images of clothed men doing newsworthy things.

It's not 'female sexuality' which is being celebrated here, but a male fantasy version of a passive sexual commodity within a very narrow beauty 'ideal'.

Publicly available everyday images like Page 3 reinforce that fantasy - if you see this image every day you unconsciously internalise it. It's impossible not to do so without a conscious effort, because the resistance of the message takes up a lot more energy. That's why advertising works.

Girls are socialised in this way to understand two things about themselves: how they should look, and how they should behave sexually.

The main area of concern with the ubiquity of porn is that it will cause real harm to girls, who grow up believing that they must perform like, and resemble porn stars - and to boys, who believe that this is the normal way to treat women.

But for this 'internalisation' of porn-style sexuality to take hold, there needs to be some groundwork laid. For a girl to be influenced by porn, she needs already to have established herself as an object. Without that initial conditioning, porn would have far less effect on young women's sexual behaviour, and girls would be more able to view it objectively. Young men would also be more able to see it as 'fantasy' rather than reality.

Page 3 images lay that groundwork. Being in a national newspaper lends these images public presence and, more harmfully for young people, the perception of mainstream cultural approval. Our society, through Page 3, tells both girls and boys 'that's what women are'. Our culture confirms the message of pornography. Pornography simply extends the message of our culture further.

A girl looks to porn to find out what it means to be a sexual woman, and she finds that she must be forever sexually available and willing; she has no sexual needs of her own, but exists primarily to serve those of men. She looks back to her culture to check her perception, and finds that her society is in agreement with that message - reinforces it daily, in fact. Page 3 establishes the basic premise which today's, increasingly extreme, pornography carries to its logical conclusion: dehumanise, then abuse.

She doesn't have to actually see Page 3 every day for its message to be loud and clear. She knows that its presence is accepted, and she knows what happens to women who complain about it. She knows that society sees it as 'innocuous' - if she objects she must be over-sensitive, or a prude. She may legitimately shout about abusive porn, but Page 3 silences her: and it is this disempowerment which makes her more susceptible to the damaging influence of porn.

Of course we must think about the accessibility of online porn, and what we can do to help our teenagers deconstruct its messages. But if we are serious about protecting them, it's also time our society stopped providing the fertile soil necessary for its influence to grow. Our mainstream media needs to stop reflecting back to young people the basic values on which pornography is built.

The Girl Guides have just told us that Page 3 is not innocuous for them. We really should listen.

Stephanie Davies-Arai is a parenting consultant who specialises in communicating with children. She blogs over here.

OP posts:
mcgruder · 01/05/2013 19:07

Completely behind this campaign

YTK1 · 01/05/2013 19:55

Thanks No More Page 3 and Stephanie to introducing me to Mumsnet and some great blogging.

Oh, isn't Page 3 so last century. Hope Mumsnet are supporting ;-)

ellispaghetti · 01/05/2013 21:18

Time's up on Page Three. Enough now. And time for Mumsnet to be part of the triumphant moment. Can't wait. The end is nigh!

mumblemum · 01/05/2013 22:39

Commenting on mumsnet for the first time in ages, I think this is really important and we should get behind this campaign.

My daughter first noticed the bare boobs on a packed train when she was three and asked me why the lady had no top on and where was the baby she was presumably about to feed. I explained that some grownup men like to look at pictures of large breasts, and added in a loud voice, "which is funny, really, cos they're for feeding babies". The page was turned, but now that my daughter is nearly six, the sleazy side of it is becoming more obvious to her, and I can see more questions coming up, but this time directed at herself: when will I have those? Will men stare at them? How will I cover them up?

It's pretty appalling really that in 2013 it still sounds contentious to argue women shouldn't be defined by their bodies.

And on the male boxers point, they're there because they're boxers, not because they're topless. I can only dream of a day when women can engage in sport topless without taboo, but removing page 3 and instead having pictures of clothed women DOING anything noteworthy is the first rung in the ladder to that level of cultural change.

libertarianj · 02/05/2013 06:26

at least the women on page 3 look healthy, have curvy figures and don't have silicone enhancements or plastic surgery. Like Lucy Collett for example: (link contains nudity obviously!)

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4634793/page-3-idol-enter-competition-lucy-collett-lacey-banghard-keeley-hazell.html

I'd be more concerned with the images in the fashion pages of the Guardian which feature anorexic looking catwalk models and then there's the Daily Mail side bar of shame, which features copious amounts of celeb nudity. I mean just look at these, which are featured today for example:

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2318050/Long-hair-dont-care-Now-Amanda-Bynes-tweets-TOPLESS-pictures-wearing-just-torn-stockings.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2317807/Miley-Cyrus-strips-cups-bare-breast-flashes-eye-popping-new-images.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2318028/Helen-Flanagan-shows-best-assets-lingerie-shoot-Britains-sexiest-woman.html

So why just single out the Sun?
I believe there could be an element of middle class snobbery to this campaign. Hmm

ChunkyChicken · 02/05/2013 08:13

At least catwalk models, whilst poor role models for a healthy body (at times - some people are naturally very thin although I'm not one of them, just slim ) , are both male and female. There is am equivalency there, & the male models are often just as skinny/underweight looking as the females.

Creeping · 02/05/2013 09:48

libertarianj
Why would another example of objectification of women make the NMP3 not worth fighting for? This is obviously something that won't change overnight, and we have to start somewhere. To start with the most iconic instance of objectification and sexualisation of women is probably a good strategy. It may not be the worst (although that is arguable, because of its status) but its removal would be a huge signal that attitudes are and should change. The side bar of shame may well be the next in line (and I expect your support there!)

Creeping · 02/05/2013 09:49

*are changing and should change

emcwill74 · 02/05/2013 10:03

Oh goodness, stop with the 'healthy' page 3 'girls' thing! You'll be telling us it's all OK because they represent youth and freshness next! You know what, I loathe the Mail, I loathe it's sidebar of shame and I'd be willing to sign as many petitions as you can chuck at me to tell them to stop hating women quite so much as they clearly do. And yes, catwalk models shouldn't have to be skinny. But to change the culture so that it isn't totally normal to present women like that in the DM you have to start somewhere and Page 3 is one of the most iconographic images of embedded sexism in our society. Get rid of that and from small acorns... Obviously it would be nice to say at this juncture, brilliant! We both of agree! But of course that would be naive. Because your final comment shows you don't agree at all. You are waving the 'middle class' card to beat us silly, wheat-germ eating, hysterical, shrill, educated wimmin with. Trying to turn this into a class war that isn't and invalidate the campaign on that basis. Well, you know what? It isn't middle-class snobbery because a diverse range of people have signed the petition. When it was discussed on Loose Women last year over 80% of those who rang in to vote did so for Page 3 to go, and that programme has a firmly C2DE audience if you want to put it in such terms. Of course you aren't the first to try to silence the campaign by waving the middle-class card, but it has already been shown to be a silly argument:

vagendamag.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/no-more-page-3-and-class-war.html

Going back to your 'curvy' women assertion, don't tell me the Sun represent a diverse range of the female form anyway! How many plus-size women do they have? How many A-cup women? How many women over 40? How many women of colour? (Yes, a token few, and hence fetishised.) Sorry but using non-anorexic models hardly makes the underlying sexism acceptable.

emcwill74 · 02/05/2013 10:54

By the way creeping, I wouldn't expect any support regarding the Mail from libertarianj. He's well known to MN in another guise. As a Dad, who likes dancing. But only when the dancers are naked ladies. He's been banned for trolling and resurfaced.

He posted this last night on the lapdancing blog he was forever linking to regarding another MN blog thread on lap dancing:

John RidgelyMay 1, 2013 at 10:49 PM
yeah at least the mumsnetters have remained civilized this time around. Although they haven't had any blokes on their admitting they go to strip clubs. That's when they really lose the plot and the man hating and insults ensue!(hehe)

I notice there's another guest blog on there regarding that 'no more page 3 campaign' if you fancy a laugh?:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/bloggers/1744704-Guest-Blog-Time-to-listen-to-young-women-Page-3-is-not-innocuous?pg=1

chocoluvva · 02/05/2013 11:00

The petition is not asking for a ban - it's asking for the owners of The Sun to stop doing the Page 3 'girl'.

libertarianj · 02/05/2013 12:58

emcwill74. Sorry but i ain't this John Ridgely geezer or dancing dad.

The petition is not asking for a ban - it's asking for the owners of The Sun to stop doing the Page 3 'girl'.

so may i ask when they plan on kindly asking the editor of the sun to remove page 3? As this petition has been going on for ages.

I also still believe that this campaign would gain more credibility if it was consistent across the board, including all media not just the Sun. Also if they did remove it from the physical paper, I'd imagine it would still be on-line as a stand alone site and people would still be viewing it on smart phones, tablets etc?

I'd be interested to know if anyone with adult content filtering on their internet can confirm if that sun link i posted above containing topless nudity is still viewable? This is regarding the issue of persons who are concerned about their children viewing it?

emcwill74 · 02/05/2013 13:17

Really. So just a huge coincidence that someone who shares your moniker of 'libertarianj' also posts on This is Cornwall, This is Bristol, and the Conventry Telegraph all about lap dancing clubs, saying very similar things to that which John Ridgely posts all over the internet on lap dancing clubs, and who has admitted was Daddancer (a libertarian) here on MN. The same John Ridgely who seems to have a bit of a MN obsession and posted about this thread on a lap dancing blog last night? Right.

If you want people to read your links may I politely suggest you learn how to link properly? this is why they don't work. It explains how to under 'Links' below.

libertarianj · 02/05/2013 13:32

well he ain't me. Sorry I'll try again with those links:

at least the women on page 3 look healthy, have curvy figures and don't have silicone enhancements or plastic surgery. Like Lucy Collett for example: (link contains nudity obviously!)

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4634793/page-3-idol-enter-competition-lucy-collett-lacey-banghard-keeley-hazell.html

I'd be more concerned with the images in the fashion pages of the Guardian which feature anorexic looking catwalk models and then there's the Daily Mail side bar of shame, which features copious amounts of celeb nudity. I mean just look at these, which are featured today for example:

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2318050/Long-hair-dont-care-Now-Amanda-Bynes-tweets-TOPLESS-pictures-wearing-just-torn-stockings.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2317807/Miley-Cyrus-strips-cups-bare-breast-flashes-eye-popping-new-images.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2318028/Helen-Flanagan-shows-best-assets-lingerie-shoot-Britains-sexiest-woman.html

chocoluvva · 02/05/2013 14:14

The existence of on-line "stand-alone" sites is all the more reason to take the Page 3 girls out of the paper. Some people are offended and/or feel that page 3 is harmful. The readers who would miss it have access to plenty of similar material so take it out. It's not asking for much.

libertarianj · 02/05/2013 17:58

Chocoluvva

Ok that is a fair point. So what you are asking for is the reduction of involuntary exposure to page 3, by removing it from the printed media format? I guess that viewing it on a hand held device is more discrete than having it on a big full page spread and less 'in yer face', such as in situations where people read it on public transport. With filtering and putting blocks on certain sites, parents will also have greater control on their kids seeing it too (although some techsavvy kids will probably get around it!)

However there would have to be a general consensus by the population that topless nudity is not acceptable for non-age restricted printed media and would have to be consistent across the board. (Maybe something similar to the facebook nudity rules?)

I personally would prefer to keep the status quo but if society as a whole want more controls/restrictions or if it is voluntarily removed by the Sun?s editor then I would accept that.

Creeping · 02/05/2013 23:20

There is this general consensus when it comes to television. I can't remember a debate about the watershed, with people arguing that the watershed restricted their choice to watch what they want. or freedom of the press/speech, or that people who don't like it just need to switch the channel.

It really is not dangerous/restricting to say as a society that the objectification and sexualisation of women should not be in mainstream culture where children will consume it and internalise the messages as supporters of Page 3 make it out to be. Those who have a need to see bare breasts still have plenty of options, but it would protect children growing up receiving harmful sexist messages about what women are supposed to be.

libertarianj · 03/05/2013 01:57

There is this general consensus when it comes to television. I can't remember a debate about the watershed, with people arguing that the watershed restricted their choice to watch what they want. or freedom of the press/speech, or that people who don't like it just need to switch the channel.

Ok but if say a group of activists were to come along with a campaign 'No more 9pm watershed' and they created a petition with 99k signatures to kindly ask the TV regulators to drop the watershed. Would you expect it to be passed through without some kind of debate/ consultation with the general public?

Also topless nudity is allowed before the watershed, like the Kate Winslet scene in Titanic for example which i would put on par with Page 3. If you take a look at those photos on the link i posted of Lucy Collett for example i really struggle to see how they could be described as sexual? and i certainly wouldn't call them 'harmful' to children. However that is my opinion and as i said before if society were to come to a general consensus that they were unacceptable then i would have to accept that.

chocoluvva · 03/05/2013 09:35

No more page 3 girls is such a small thing to ask for.

emcwill74 · 03/05/2013 10:16

Was there any debate/consultation with the public when a tabloid editor decided it was time to depict women as decorative objects to look at, surrounded by pages of clothed men doing stuff? Or when they decided, that's not enough, let's make up some words she didn't say, put them in a caption box next to her and pretend she did, in which we take the piss out of her for being thick?

If the pictures are not sexual, then why do very similar on the Daily Star page 3 web page elicit comments like this (The Sun disabled the ability to leave comments, the Star has since followed suit, wonder why) [taken from www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lisa-clarke/page-three-mostly-harmless-i-beg-to-differ_b_3034030.html?]:

"I'd love to spray my load over those juicy titties"

"Come on Jodie you little Teaser....we wanna see you whippin' your tits out for the Lads this week!!! We demand it you piece of Fodder! GET YOUR TITS OUT NOW!!!"

"Just wanked over this picture"

"Good set of tits on this dollop of fodder"

"Stacey is bleedin gorgeous!!!! So why has she only been given one chance to get her cracking tits out for the lads!!!????She loves unleashing that juicy rack when we demand it!!!!AND WE DEMAND IT NOW!!!! GET YER TITS OUT STACEY!!!!! XXXX"

"Now you are a babe. I bet you have a gorgeous puy if it's anything like your lovely tits which I would very much like to nuzzle into. I'd love to look down on you lovely lips wrapped around my . If your dirty, I'll give you anything you want, who wouldn't?!!!"

"Look at the wobbly knockers on that!! and todays slut is....emma frain with her pear shaped dark textured nipples out.

I love you, For you there is nothing I would not do. Your smile is so pretty, Not to mention your titties. They're gorgeous and cute, They make me wanna shove my up your chute, Because your practically perfect, Emma I love you now can we have some sex!"

"a wonderful beauty with a very shapely body just the right size tits to enjoy sucking on and have fun with would enjoy getting u as a present"

Here are some comments by those who didn't like that day's 'girl', they are lovely, really show how aspirational and glamourous the job is:

"Not impressed by this piece of Essex Fodder...crap tits...fake sun tan and that jet black dyed hair. Nothing attractive about Geena facially either."

"These tits just aren't good enough....it's embarrassing."

"Yes you have nice boobs but your face is not the best"

"This Girl has no tits! Why for sake is she on Page 3!!"

"And what a saggy pair of tits this Welsh wannabe has...you could park a bus between that cleavage."

libertarianj · 03/05/2013 12:49

Some childish comments which unfortunately we get everywhere on the net (like youtube for example) are hardly conclusive proof that page 3 is sexual or sexist.

There is no knowing who wrote them or their gender/ sexuality. They could could have even been written by the anti page 3 lobby for all we know.

emcwill74 · 03/05/2013 13:31

Oh yes, of course they were written by the ant-page 3 lobby! That MUST be it! Are the comments I've had directed at me when I've posted about page 3 on the internet telling me I'm a prude minger whose body [that they haven't seen] was turned down for page 3 and how they have a right to melons, written by those pesky anti-page-3ers too? Of course they show page 3 is sexual/sexist! I don't see what youtube has to do with it. So there are objectified women on YT too. What of it? Of course there are. This is how women are treated. This is why you don't think there's anything wrong with it, because it's the norm.

What is page 3 for exactly? (Assuming you don't think it's for men, as I am certain they are, like those above to judge as to whether they want to shag the models or not and get a semi.) Your comparison with seeing an actress topless in a film doesn't really make sense. A film has a narrative and plot, people are [usually] naked when having sex, and in the course of a standard film (I'm not talking porn) there is a context for characters being undressed. There is no context at all for page 3, and that is what is so obviously wrong with it: here's some news, here's some weather, here's some more news, and here's a naked lady. WHY??!!

I simply don't believe most (straight) women want to look at other topless women. I'm not saying we necessarily hate seeing other women's bodies, just that for most part it's all a bit, so what? I have a body, I see that naked (I actually really like my body), but I'm not particularly interested in seeing other women's. In the same way I doubt many men want to study other men's naked bodies. Do you feel it would improve a daily paper you chose to read if you got to see more naked men? So I can only conclude that page 3 is for men, who do like seeing women's bodies, as evidenced by those comments. And by extension it frames our bodies as public property, something to be judged and commented on by strangers.

You can say those comments don't prove the image is sexual or sexist (or were written by anti-page 3 campaigners) all you like, but you must know full well how hollow that sounds! We all know what page 3 is for and there is no longer any reason for it to be there.

Do you like UKIP by the way? Just wondering.

fcknits · 03/05/2013 13:42

Tbh, I'm on libertarianj's side.

Quoting from The Sun article: "Researchers compared the BMI of fashion models, celebrities and Page 3 girls and found that The Sun?s beauties have an average BMI of 20.04 ? putting them in the normal category. But the average BMI of fashion models was a dangerously low 16.3, according to the US National Eating Disorders Association."

The models look normal and healthy and don't show any more than you'd see on some beaches. They aren't doing anything bad. They allow girls to see what normal bodies look like (increasingly difficult during this modern obesity epidemic) and what normal boobs look like (which helps people to realise that all boobs and nipples are different but equally functional). [If look at the photos of Lucy Collett, you'll see that she actually has a healthy defined waist despite being a size 14!! That is a positive message that should be put out in the public.]

I'm far more concerned by stories about breastfeeding moms being asked to "cover up" or feed their babies and toddlers in toilets. Or being told that full-term breastfeeding is somehow "unnatural".

If there were no more Page3 girls... Would Facebook stop banning photos of breast cancer scars or breastfeeding moms? Would we suddenly stop thinking of boobs as an embarrassing body part? Would people stop being interested in porn? Would naturism be banned? What exactly would it do... and where would it stop?

fcknits · 03/05/2013 13:50

Btw, regarding emcwill74's Huffington Post article, you cannot compare The Daily Star's readership to that of The Sun.

The Sun is the nation's best selling newspaper i.e. the majority of newspaper-reading Brits actually buy it (and, presumably, read it).

The Daily Star is a junk tabloid. I personally don't know anyone who reads it or believes that it contains anything approaching good journalism.

Creeping · 03/05/2013 13:53

Calling these gross, sexist, misogynistic, aggressive comments "childish", shows how ignorant you really are.

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