<<deep breath>> Ok, I know how this is going to look, I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right place, but I need some help with ds, please

[TAFKAtheUrbanDryad]

I am preparing for a flaming but I am at my wits' end with ds and I just don't know where else to post.

He will be 3 in January, has been able to count for ages (since before he was 2), can recognise numbers up to 50, can do simple sums (2+2, count down in 2's from 10 etc), knows all his letters, has started to recognise words (his name, daddy, mummy, dd's name, cat, dog etc) and knows all his colours and shapes. He is a precocious little sod, truth be told - when I said, "Is this a rectangle, ds?" he looked at me witheringly and said, "No. It's an oblong."

His behaviour leaves a lot to be desired. He is aggressive, doesn't listen well, spits, screams, shouts, torments other children. On Tuesday we had an incident at playschool where he attacked another child and kicked them repeatedly in the face while laughing. I think even the manager was a bit freaked out by it.

I've been to see the GP today, because I'm worried about ASD/ADD etc - I was hoping to get a referral to a paediatric psychiatrist or something, but the GP said there was no point referring him because no-one would diagnose him so young. He said he thought ds was just a very bright little boy who was frustrated and needed firm boundaries and channelling.

So - my question is this: What can I do to "channel" him? I can't exactly enrol him in chess club! I do try to spend time with him playing, building train tracks, blocks, playing music, reading etc - but I have an 8 month old dd as well, who obviously takes up a lot of my time. Are there any activities that would be suitable for a not-quite 3 year old?

@avril..they're pawns aren't they ??..

god, i'll be using 'their they're and there' incorrectly next.

Tafka - having read your op again.......

go and see another gp and DEMAND a referral for ds to be seen by a peadatrician
My ds was referrred aged 3, seen once/twice a year until now and diagnosed aged 6 (he is now 8)
My ds was seen several times at differnt ages - the pead made comparisons with how he was when she saw him before etc

Does he like reading - my ds thrives on books - so trips to the library and purchases of books from The Book People go down very well.

HTH - You are welcome to CAT me if you want to chat off MN
Also posting in Special Needs and linking to this thread - you will get a lot of help there

Tafka - you don't need to go through the GP. Ask for the SENCO to refer you via the Ed psych or Inclusion co-ordinator.

DD only saw our paed via GP by chance because she started falling over (turned out to be epilepsy). But she would have seen him via the Area Inclusion co-ordinator.

Try Cranium Hullaballoo - it is like Twister but he has to listen to the instructions (including colours, shapes, actions, animals).

Uses energies and should play to his strengths as he knows all those things.

I'm just going to concentrate on what your GP said and that it's a load of bull. My 3.5 year old has had an ASD diagnosis for a year now. My almost 6 year old, extremely bright and a total whirlwind, started on the diagnostic process shortly after his 3rd birthday and yes, he has autism with ADHD. He is now doing amazingly well in a mainstream school with appropriate help with all the social/behavioural/organisational stuff.

Your GP might be a doctor, but he is neither a psychiatrist nor a developmental paediatrician, so he's not qualified to say whether your son can or can't be diagnosed. More likely, he wants to avoid the paperwork.

I know of a few of people who've been fobbed off by their GPs saying the just need to parent their children better whose children have turned out to be on the spectrum. If you're really worried, stick to your guns. I didn't even go to my GP for a referral, but spoke to my health visitor, instead.

You could be writing about my ds, now 6.

I fought for 4 years for him to be seen by specialists. He has now seen two and tbh they were no help whatsoever.

www.nagcbritain.org.uk/parents.php?id=49

www.davidsongifted.org/db/A rticlesid10167.aspx www.sengifted.org/articles_counseling/Webb_MisdiagnosisAndDualDiagno sisOfGiftedChildren.shtml

Turned out that he is just exceptionally bright and needs a different approach.

Ds1 very similar to your ds in terms of ability at that age, from what you say. Wasn't ever that aggressive, but was hopeless at, for example, sharing, seeing things from another's point of view (I mean even for a 2-3 year old). Had compulsive repetitive behaviours, which drove nursery nuts.
He has been MUCH easier since he turned 4.
I think that for us:
DH tended to talk to his intellectual age rather than his emotional/social age ( = melt downs when tired); there's less of a gulf now.
He was a late talker (2.5) so even more frustrating.
He has learnt to read fluently. Major bonus.

I wouldn't rule out the possibilty that he has a "spectrum" issue. However things are improving month by month and so far (fingers crossed) is coping at school.

I can only offer my hope that your ds will be easier when a little older too.

get him a trampoline

Ooh, someone bumped my thread!

Just re-read. Thanks for all suggestions.

I took him to a cranial osteopath, and he is like a different child. The theory behind it seems a bit woobollocksy tbh, and the osteopath herself annoys me, but it has seriously worked wonders for him! Because he is calmer, I've been able to see what a delightful little boy he is, and be able to treat him more like a little boy. I've been putting a much more solid routine in place, making sure that he gets a dose of fresh air every day, and having weekly library books. Add to this his fabulous new playschool and you have a happy mama and a happy little boy!

Just got to get is sleep issues sorted now!

Hello, well done for coping with all you have on your plate!!! My eldest DS is 11 and is G&T for Maths. He was an extremely challenging baby and toddler (your scenario sounds very familiar) !! It was like a baptism of fire having him.. All the other babies would sit nicely onthe rug at coffee mornings, while he unpacked the best china in another room, or sprinkled pot pourri everywhere in their bathroom!! Heehee, funny looking back, but mortifying at the time. He also never slept a wink, (I thought 9pm til 5am was a good night, and he didnt do that til he was 3)

When he was two ,my DS used to cry really loudly if he was bored and hammer on the front door to get out of the house for 1/2 an hour at a time, because he loved stimulation so much he wanted to do things all the time.

I would suggest the BBC's Muzzy which is a language progamme, aimed at little children. Also, look at the National Association of Gifted and Talented website, they have loads of helpful tips. My own son, felt a lot happier and safer once I had established rigid boundaries for him. I did not like doing this, as I am more of a wishy washy creative type!! But I could see that he was much happier and felt safer when he knew I meant it. It was torture though, I used to stand by his bedroom door for an Hour and keep putting him back in his bed at bedtime (can't believe I did it now!)

Be lead by your son and don't listen to other parents... It's hard to be the parents of a clever little person,but very rewarding.

Oh, and I also took him to loads of baby and toddler activity clubs, music, gym bobs etc as well as going to a private nursery where they taught him "days of the week" and "breads of the world" at 20 mnths!! I know it sounds really pushy parenty... but really, he demanded it, not me and I did not do the same thing with my second DS, who is a completely different child.

I think all the advice about exercise is good - when my daughter came home from nursery and early school she was awful - I think being 'confined' created a pent up energy which made her dreadful - we had an orchard and I used to get her to run round it - not much resistence if a small goal was added because I think she knew it was what she needed - I could watch her and still get the meal.

The second prong of attack is to think of lots of different experiences and see if you can find one which gives a hobby which will channel mental energy possibly alongside physical. for example, those match attax cards which look such a rip off at first - may boys like collecting them and I was amazed at what else was learnt. eg flags, other countries named in other languages, memorising facts about footballers. Has he ever travelled on a train - a short journey has so many stimuli of sound etc. Maps of trains, timetables (and the underground map which mathematically and conceptually was a first) as well as interest in their history gives opportunities for lots of brain extending work. Even kite flying has great scope - the excitement and technique of flying it, thinking about distances, why are some locations windier than others, then perhaps move to making one and /or designing. Every single opportunity to come across problems and learn to solve them is great. If others can help in that - perhaps grandparents etc - then a child is exposed to different ways of thinking and different experiences from that other adult.
The most important thing in my experience is to give children the chance to experience the awesome bits of life and to find the excitement learning brings. Once they have that, then they will be able to drive their own enthusiasms and learning. Clever children may need more patience than some - but it is rewarding.

www.uptoten.com is a good mostly child-led website good for bright children to do by themselves from two. Good for computer skills, from absolute basics upwards. We used this as a substitute for TV - entertainment, distraction and skills - for two years for DD1 and now for DD2. Gentle age appropriate stories and fun games and songs, might calm him down or at least interest him.

I always took my two swimming if I wanted to wear them out. Worked a treat - they would fall asleep in the car on the way home and stay that way for 2-3 hours minimum. I used to take lunch or tea to feed them in the changing room immediately after too, or they'd sleep though a meal.

Agree with the others who say ourdoor play and swimming are good for bright/lively/stroppy boys.
I have two of those so know how you feel...

Hmmm....three year old with (now 13 month old?) baby sister? ..."aggressive, doesn't listen well, spits, screams, shouts, torments other children."? You don't say . It makes me so sad to hear mums say they're 'at their wits end' and I hope you're not beating yourself up over this. Just a suggestion but it sounds like a typical bit of jealousy to me. Perfectly normal and very common but hell for you. I dare say you have the full care (don't know if you're in paid work as well) 24/7. What you (and all parents, actually) need is lots of other people around who can take him or the baby or (preferably) both off your hands for a bit, give them one to one attention and give you a break. Unfortunately, we are 'civilised' now, and in my book 'civilisation' in this regard has done nothing for Mums, just isolated us from help, which means you have to do it all yourself! Two parents are never enough! OK, I'll stop ranting about the mad way we're expected to pull off the most important job there is. A practical suggestion: have you tried off-loading the baby occasionally and spending time just with the three yr old? Forgive me if I'm saying what you already know but they do often get 'angry' when there's a new addition taking mum's time and attention, they don't know why of course, and they're obviously not old enough to put into words what the problem is. You were his exclusive property before the littl'un came along, and no matter how careful we are, the arrival of a younger sibling can cause ructions. 'In the wild', so to speak, his survival would depend upon how much attention/food/protection he gets so he's only doing what's natural - unfortunately, you're the one who has to provide it all! See what I mean about 'civilisation'?

I'm new here and reading this thread with interest. Reminds me of my own eldest who's now in year 5.. he's never mixed well with kids of his own age.. and a "friend" always said he's "scary" cos he's tooo bright. When we row.. it's major! He presses all my buttons while managing to stay logical... takes all of your resources. Anyway, I'm an astrologer. Is there a pivate message facility? I'd love to get his birth data if you agreed?

I think that the behaviour possibly indicates that he needs more attention, not just with academia, but with affection.

Oh, I hear you! I really feel for you! He sounds a lot like my little boy, he too was barely on solids at 10 months and is definitely a "different" kid (in the best possible way!) and has recently had big aggression problems most definitely triggered by his nursery (massive long saga there ). And if your son is anything like mine (now 4), wearing him out at the playpark will only make him 10 times more active and over-stimulated. When I did that with mine, he would be up all night bouncing off the ceiling. Mine could over-stimulate himself in a white padded cell - I call him Attention Surfeit Disorder! 18 months to almost 4.5 (a month ago) was absolutely the most difficult age for my little darling. He wanted to do so much yet couldn't and that led to the most horrible frustration. If I had a penny for each time I've been at my absolute wits'-end with him, and the lack of help/interest from the system is unbelievable. Also, the usual parenting book stuff doesn't work, he had sticker charts sussed at 2 and what a thing of evil they became at his hands - never, ever again - cold shudders! The one book I've read that "gets" what I'm going through with my son is Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child by Robert J. Mackenzie:

www.amazon.co.uk/Setting-Limits-Your-Strong-Willed-Child/dp/0761521364

I wish I'd read it when he was 2. It describes my little boy exactly and recognises that there are children who can plan out a strategy and think several steps ahead to lead the grown-ups a fine dance. At 4, my son can't count past 12 but could give Napoleon a run for his money in the battle-planning stakes.

Now my son is a bit older, he can do stuff like play chess and battleships and listen to radio shows, audiobooks etc so it does make life a little bit easier and he is definitely less frustrated but he still seems to need someone to constantly engage with him and answer his stream of questions which is hard but I'm beginning to accept this as inevitable. I have long given up hoping the questions will stop and now just swot up on Wikipedia and DK books in the rare moments when he sleeps.

One good piece of advice given to me when my son was just a bit older than yours was to forget the idea of "age suitable" books. I'd take him to the library and the picture books would get flung, leading to frustration all round. It hadn't occurred to me before to go into the grown-up section and get him out info books on planes, cars, zeppelins (which he's obsessed with), once I did all of a sudden I had a much happier kid who suddenly became really interested in books - until then I thought he hated books. He's into Horrid Henry and Enid Blyton at the moment, we read all the Faraway Tree and Wishing Chair books when he was 3, maybe your little boy will like those?