What is it about G&T that is so contriversal?

[DidEinsteinsMum]

Okay trying to get my head round this and hoping it doesn't get too ugly What is it about G&T that is so contriversal - the definition, the application of policy?
Go on let rip ...

...you know you want to

(please try not to get to personal is not a vendetter thing - just want to get an over view and an understanding)

I don't see you as a dissenter (though we may not agree on everything).

I suppose I am a rather talented fence-sitter.

Sitting on the fence with both ears to the ground

Jabberwocky, I am American living in the UK and your assessment is spot on. This just isn't controversial in the States. Maybe that's partly because we Yanks don't value brains and intellectualism as much as ought to, mind . I was also in "Mentally Gifted" programmes (rubbish, tbh!!) as a child myself, so I can see a lot of the possible issues from both sides, as it it were.

I haven't read entire thread, but must say, a reception-age child with a reading age of 11 definitely deserves to be called Gifted, imho. None of my own DC could do that, btw, neither did I!

Must admit, I have one not-so-nice habit. I love to encourage people to boast about their DC, whilst revealing nothing about my own DC's abilities. In the secret hope that one day my own DC will very obviously trounce the other child at something and I can play all innocent-like, as though I had no idea my DC were so talented . This is possibly due to me learning to be so diffident after living in the UK so long.

I think that it is controversial because no one can agree what makes a DC G&T. On another thread someone has said it is the top 5-10% of the population and the doctors, dentists etc. I would say that those are just people of above average intelligence.
G&T, to me,is way above this and probably only 2% of the population. I think this is the difficulty in schools, it is 10%, so a DC on the register at one school may have no hope of getting onto it in another.
G & T often seems to be PFB where the parent thinks their DC is wonderful-don't we all!

Cory's nephew's dad has got it spot on.

"I think that it is controversial because no one can agree what makes a DC G&T. "
There isn't a universally accepted definition for gifted. And all the top 10% isn't gifted by any definition I know. But, for the purposes of the G&T programme it's the top 10% ... and that seems to rile people.

Despite the broad net the programme hopes to discover that small 2 / 1 / 0.5% of really gifted children. And these are more likely to be in the top 10% of ability. Putting all 10% on the Register allows for closer monitoring, a clearer picture and the discovery of these geniuses.

DadAtLarge, exactly, I have stated this on previous threads. It is just not possible to put together a program for a small handful of students. Making it accessible to the top 10% means that you have enough students to justify hiring the teachers, support staff etc. And when that truly gifted child who is in the top 0.1% of the population is in the mix s/he can help to stretch the others.

"It is just not possible to put together a program for a small handful of students. Making it accessible to the top 10% means that you have enough students to justify hiring the teachers, support staff etc."

Agreed. People seem to miss the 'political' side to G&T. If they cry elitist at 10%, imagine the uproar if it only catered for the 99, 99.9 or 99.99 centile! It has to include enough pupils to make it viable to run a programme and to be able to justify the cost per pupil. And how would the poor kid feel if s/he were the only person in the whole school singled out for this special treatment? - imagine the bullying!
Besides which the Govt know, from experience, that if you make the definition too narrow then schools will just declare that they have no pupils eligible and hence do no G&T provision at all. If it is defined as the top 10% of each and every school then they have no get-out clause.

I disagree with the concept that "no one can agree what makes a DC G&T". What makes Joe Public think that they have enough knowledge of educational matters to pontificate on what is or isn't G&T? The Govt would do better to scrap the label of Gifted, which seems to get up peoples' noses, and just call them the 10%. That would end the argument!

It is possible to put together a program for a small handful of pupils-and they do. In my area secondary schools run special workshops and children go from the feeder schools. My friend runs courses for her county. Warwick University runs summer schools and I expect there are lots more.
Comprehensive education isn't about levelling down, it is about suiting all DCs under the same roof. You can't treat them all the same, with the huge range of abilities.

"And when that truly gifted child who is in the top 0.1% of the population is in the mix s/he can help to stretch the others. "
Wouldn't that be lovely. Unfortunately, some detractors would see the word "stretch" in there and freak out. You can't go stretching children, imagine the damage it would do to them!

"Agreed. People seem to miss the 'political' side to G&T. If they cry elitist at 10%, imagine the uproar if it only catered for the 99, 99.9 or 99.99 centile!"
Exactly!

"Comprehensive education isn't about levelling down, it is about suiting all DCs under the same roof."
Are you saying many schools don't do a pretty thorough job of levelling down?

"In my area secondary schools run special workshops and children go from the feeder schools. My friend runs courses for her county. Warwick University runs summer schools and I expect there are lots more."
I've taken matters up with DS's school and we've put some things in place now but in the three years they've had him they never sent him on any course, never had him work with ability-peers and never got him Maths work suited to his ability. They didn't even put him on the G&T Register (though the Head admits he would have qualified even in Reception)! And they are one of the top three schools in the county by both OFSTED reports and league tables if those mean anything. So, piscesmoon, it's possible to put together a programme but many don't. They don't treat all DCs the same but they don't cater properly for the top few - that's the easiest group to ignore.

piscesmoon, are you saying that these programs should take the place of a G&T program through the schools? We have things like you mentioned in our area and we participate in them in addition to, not instead of.

DadAtLarge, it sounds as it you have had a really tough time of it We have been lucky so far. Ds1's pre-school teacher was so excited to have him that she rearranged the class to have him sitting with some of the brighter pupils who might follow his lead. She also arranged for him to take classes with the kindergarteners and first-graders (US system) without any prompting from us. It was all a brilliant success. We decided to move the following year to a system that had an International Baccalaureate Magnet School and have been well-pleased with it thus far. Is moving an option at all for you?

In addition to-jabberwocky.

jabberwocky, I wouldn't say we had a tough time but I would say we've been stupid. Just because the school gets great reports from OFSTED and other parents, just because our DS was the teacher's pet in every year, just because each class teacher said all the right things at parents' evening about giving him challenging work ... we just left it to them to do the right thing. DS got progressively more bored as the years passed and it started spilling over into cockiness (I'm the most brilliant kid in the whole world), behaviour problems in the classroom etc. And it was so clear that the more bored he got the more disrputive he became. And this is the one who would have won every prize for good behaviour. So we decided to stop being worried about coming across as pushy parents. And the problem seems solved.

Since then I've been talking a lot with friends and family in the education business, with other parents of very bright children ... and find that my experience isn't unique. My brother has a DS who's now in Y5 (in another school), he's as able in maths as my DS if not more so, he's still not on the Register and his school has done a "brilliant job" of evening him out.

That's why my advice to other parents is - don't do what we did! If you have a very bright C (top 10%) read up on the G&T, read the school's policy on Gifted to know where you stand. You may get lucky and have a teacher like jabberwocky's DS did, in which case, great. But it could change next year.

Many teachers, as is apparent from these boards, are against G&T. Don't just go by the noises the teacher makes, go by the actions. Bear in mind that you are the only ones for whom your child is #1 priority.

What piscesmoon means is probably what sort of program I was in as a child, and it was mostly pants. The group of us MGM (Mentally Gifted Minors) kids had a special session (probably weekly) in stuff like typing, caligraphy, singing, other stuff. I didn't get anything out of it.

It was especially pants because my parents moved me to that school (extremely white, in a rich neighbourhood) because it was seemingly the only school in the county with an MGM programme. I was badly bullied and miserable there.

Previously I happily attended a multi-racial/ethnic primary school (in a socially declining area) where I was taught bilingually (my parents were mostly mono-lingual). I imagine that I would have been much better off staying at the original primary school.

I resent the claim that "everyone" is PFB in believing that their DC are bright -- I'm not, anyway. I have to bite my tongue a lot about my children's shortcomings, which they have many of, and I have always recognised that since they were tiny. But they are brighter than average, that's not a brag on my part, just a lucky fact for them. I would be letting them down if I didn't think carefully about nurturing their natural abilities, whatever those may be.

Dad and lljkk, it is unfortunate that schools often do not live up to their reputation. When we had ds1 tested at 4 (he had done some things by then such as teaching himself to read at 2 1/2) and then realized what we had on our hands, we took the matter very seriously. Dh spent 6 months researching schools both nearby and in other towns. Ultimately, we interviewed 6 schools by phone and visited 5 of those. We made a decision, bought a house in the district we wanted and I then sat in a chair for 15 hours to get him into the chosen school. It may sound quite OTT to some but it has worked out really well for ds1. With gifted children at risk of "mental drop-out" by the third grade, behavior problems due to boredom and even a higher incidence of suicide, we felt that our decisions were appropriate.

IIt saddens me when the G&T threads go south. As parents of children such as these we badly need advice and a support group. MN is so good at that in every other topic but fails miserably most of the time in this one.

Ooh, I can think of a few other topics which MN is quite rubbish for .

slight hijack alert....

every time I see this thread I think you are talking about gin and tonic and feel the need to contribute

made me laugh tonight when I did it for the 3rd time so thought I'd say hello

hijack over

GYo - Thanks for the light relief.