Oxbridge thoughts too early?

[mids2019]

I just noticed this thread and was wondering if gifted and talented children could have Oxbridge expectations out anthem too early in their academic careers? If a child insidiously talented in say maths or physics do family members/friends/teachers start dropping Oxford or Cambridge into conversations when discussing the child's potential?

I was just thinking of situations in my school career where gifted and talented students with pristine grade profiles and generally accepted as very intelligent by their peers did not succeed in getting into Oxford (much to the community's amazement). It took a long time for the students to accept rejection as they had been lauded for their intelligence for some time and they couldn't understand how if you are advanced for such a long time how could you not be accepted?

Oxbridge is a nice experience (went there), but it’s very competitive and not everyone who wants a place can get one. Different subjects have different levels of competition. To increase your chances, you should work hard and prepare; but there is a significant amount of chance involved. Lots of other universities are great as well - some of the researchers and academics at oxbridge did their bachelor’s at other places.

‘failing’ (to achieve what you originally wanted) at some point in your academic/school career is highly likely. It’s ok - you can usually still achieve your goals (though they just may require more work). But you might find your goals shift as you come across different and better opportunities.

Went to oxbridge. ‘Failed’ at my original career. But I’m better suited to my new career. DH didn’t get a great degree class, but is now doing well in a flexible job he likes. I’d also advise my kids to think carefully about what degree they want to do (and if they want to do one at all) - degrees cost a lot more now than they did, so I would think it wiser for them to work for a bit (if they weren’t sure)

People might do harm to a gifted child if the focus on Oxbridge, as there are often better options like Imperial, MIT, Stanford, Zurich, Munich or Bern, or even a degree apprenticeship with Google or Goldman. I was very grateful in a way that early on people around me encourage me to aim high, including looking at a wide variety of universities and programs globally and to look into scholarships. It didn't put pressure on me, but it made me consider options I otherwise wouldn't have even known about. I always knew it would be a numbers-game and eventually would boil down to a decisive amount of luck, e.g. I got outright rejected by Cambridge but got full scholarships (100% tuition and living expenses) from Oxford and Princeton. I think once you got your first job, it doesn't make any difference where you went to uni, but the uni experience in itself is quite important, especially if it includes a Master or Doctorate, so it's potentially a lot of money that could be saved by being aware from an earlyish age that there are very good universities around the globe that tend to give a lot of money to able students, but it might involve learning the language or preparing for country specific college admission tests etc, so I started to prepare age 14 by practicing and taking EAFL tests. I also finished school shortly after my 17th birthday, so had to apply to unis at 16, so needed to make sure I had everything in place depending on the varying national requirements.

Agree with this. A good friend of mine had Oxbridge whispered in his ear from junior school. He didn't make it (went to an excellent uni but it wasn't Oxbridge) and always felt like a failure. He eventually made it to Oxford as a doctoral student aged 30... fucking hated it. And is now very disillusioned because he had spent 30 years thinking it was the be all and end all and it was a dream realised that totally fell flat. He's sure if he hadn't had this said to him by parents and teachers from such a young age he would have appreciated the undergrad and postgrad he did much more rather than feeling they were second best.

Just to add I totally agree with previous poster. And that’s as a mum whose very bright son has just been rejected by Cambridge. We never pushed it but he decided it was where he wanted to go. He’s got 9x9s and an 8 at gcse and absolutely loves his A levels/chosen subject. I know he’d have done well.

But he’s not going there. I imagine he’ll go in October to one of the other RG universities who made (high) offers. He’s a bit hacked off, but not thinking he’s failed.

@HerReputationMadeItDifficultToProceed

That is tragic to hear. Maybe a cautionary tale?

I wouldn’t say tragic. It’s a lottery…. And as such it’s a mistake to do as the OP has suggested. That’s if you’re referring to my post.

@Radiatorvalves

Sorry other poster. Your post seems perfectly sensible. I was referring to a pp who knew someone that never really got over Oxbridge rejection as he had been greater to those universities from a young age. Very much back in the day Inknew a couple of people whose Oxbridge rejections surprised the whole school and I do think there was a weight of expectation on their shoulders.

In the nicest possible way, Oxford is stuffed full of postgrads with romanticised ideas about the place, whether it’s living out their Brideshead fantasies or associating it with some intellectual nirvana — because they didn’t get in for their first degrees. While obviously in many cases this is partly due to schools and parents with a kneejerk Brand Oxbridge obsession, I do think that by the time you leave school and are thinking about your life and career, you’re responsible for pushing back against these scripts. Someone aged 30 should really be past the age of blaming parents and teachers for their own sense of failure and the fact that they found the reality of a dream underwhelming.

I mean, I went to Oxford and my parents have always been vaguely disappointed in me — that’s on them.

I think that it often looks like children are very talented at a young age but actually they have just matured intellectually earlier than their peers, who catch them up by 17/18.

Also worth pointing out now it is far more competitive to get into Oxbridge now than 25/30 years ago. There are many more applicants for not that many more places. So it may be that parental / school expectations are not in tune with current day realities. Many of your bright , Oxbridge educates friends would be rejected today.

Did you go as an undergrad despite being discouraged by your school, or did you go later? Just that I didn’t expect your post to end with “I have two Oxbridge degrees” and am intrigued how it all panned out for you as a teenager.

OP, my DH and I both went to Cambridge, but we were both the first in our families to go to University and our parents didn’t really have much first and kBowles he to guide us with. So from their perspective it was quite a simple equation of “really clever- aim for what people say is the best university”. (And I can remember as clear as day starting Reception and my Mum saying “work hard and you will go to University”) But neither of us was hugely pushed and, of course it all worked out fine for us both in the end.

DS is only 6 but he’s showing signs of being really advanced in maths. At some point I guess we’ll explain to him about university but, ironically, having been to Oxbridge we both know that it is not the be all and end all. (Actually, I think now that the really bright kids are encouraged to aim for US Ivy League and Oxbridge is a bit second rate!)

Crucially, we have a lot more knowledge of the higher education system and world of work than our parents did, so our guidance can be more nuanced.

To answer your question, yes I do agree that planting the idea that anything other than Oxbridge is a failure is dangerous, but it often happens in circumstances where it’s just well-meaning shorthand for “aim high” coming from families who don’t have enough direct experience to advise more specifically. For example, they would have no idea which college to go for, or which of Oxford or Cambridge was better in which subject. It’s up to schools to inform and manage expectations.

@Catnary yes I went for undergrad after much indecision and anxiety - my parents encouraged me to speak to the admissions tutor about my concerns (after I had an offer and wasn't sure whether to accept it - my favourite teacher at school was of the 'are you sure you wouldn't be better off at a 'normal' uni' camp) and they convinced me to give it a go! And in the end I loved it.

But there is a big difference between the undergrad and postgrad experience I think. Having now done postgrad degrees both there and elsewhere, I'd say postgrad is much less 'cutting edge' and rigorous there than the other institutions I've been at (in my field at least!). So I can see why people might feel misled in the way PPs have described.

I’m glad to hear that. I loved it too.

Agree with whoever said even when you're actually at Oxbridge the goalposts change dramatically - I was always v good at school, considered an Oxbridge cert by everyone and got into C with perfect grades in A levels and STEP and no sweat. I got a scholarship at the end of year one with a first. By the final year, however, I'd lost interest in academia. My supervisor asked if I'd stay on for a PhD but I said no, I was focused on a career that I already had a stepping stone into and a boyfriend in London, my subject started being taught in a way that was much less enjoyable for me and I wanted to get out of a small town and party. I got a 2:1 (to my parents' and friends' shock but not mine!) and was very happy with that. Meanwhile a girl in my year who'd been very quiet and got a 2:2 in year one had been quietly blossoming in the background, got a stupendous first in finals and is now a world expert in her field - absolutely yay for her.

I think one of our most important jobs as parents is to protect our children from external expectations.

I was the first in my family to go Oxford. I met my husband there. Since then, it feels like every man and his dog from both sides have gone there, expect my nephew who is starting at Cambridge this year.

My daughter is 8. The assumption from my parents’ generation that she will follow the same path is palpable. This is terribly unfair.

I had a fantastic time at Oxford. I feel privileged to have studied under the people who taught me, in mainly 1:2 tutorials. I loved the collegiate system, particularly because it allowed me to participate in sports that I would not have had a chance with otherwise. I have been left with a strong circle of interesting friends from disparate backgrounds who read very diverse subjects and now are doing varied and interesting things with their lives. I am lucky because I was good at essay-writing, stumbled upon the right college, and never really felt under pressure there.

For those reasons, I would be delighted if my daughter decided she wanted to go, as I would want her to benefit in the same way as I did. However, I would fight until my dying breath against the expectations of others if she didn’t want to go, or if I felt that she might find it overly stressful. She is still so little, and her talents may lie elsewhere. I make no assumption that she will even want to go to university. And if she does, Oxford and Cambridge aren’t always the best place for every degree anyway.

When I look back on my life, if I have helped nurture a love of learning and curiosity, if I have taught her the value of hard work and perseverance, if she has had the opportunity to explore different avenues, if I have given her opportunities to safely experience failure and supported her in building resilience and self-worth, if I have shown her safe and loving relationships, if she truly believes that I am proud of her whatever she does, and if she feels safe to come to me for support, no matter what, then I will feel that I have done my best by her.

Conversely if I allow others to heap the pressure of certain expectations on her from an early age, I feel that I would already be failing her.

@Secnarf

Great post.

It's the balance between supporting aspiration without unduly exerting pressure to achieve certain goals that is important in my view.

If you're looking for a less random way to get into Oxbridge by virtue of maths/physucs talents, the best route isn't (just) to get A*s on your maths and physics A-levels, but also to score well in the BMO and the BPhO. If those students who were surprisingly rejected didn't know about this, then the odds were stacked against them.

For Oxbridge, the aptitude tests and, if applicable, written work, and the further tests set by colleges are more important than grades. You often find people get in with ABB while others with 4Astars got rejected. Practicing standardised aptitude tests and problem solving under time pressure is probably the best preparation for Oxbridge/Russel Group entry, just check which tests each university uses. Remember that most schools won't be doing any preparation at all!! Some commentators will say that's hothousing and if someone is intelligent enough, they will sail in. But every serious math (chemistry/physics) olympiad I know constantly practices. Whatever your inate aptitude, if you don't practice from an early age, it's very unlikely you will reach international form.

Insidiously talented?
what is insidious about having a talent or high intelligence?

My DD was identified as G&T by her secondary school in year 7. They identified 5 pupils out of 180 and told them if they worked hard they were Oxbridge potential. We knew she was bright but as she was a a tiny primary school we didn’t realise how bright.
Since Yr 7 I think the school has included a few more in the G&T group. She’s just about to go into yr 10 and getting on target for her grade 9 predictions.
DD has said she’d like to go to Oxford and study forensic science.
I worry how quickly students can stop performing during these crucial years due many reasons, especially pressure. Therefore we do talk about her going to Oxford & how to ensure it happens but I feel that she’s got to lead it all.

The first report a member of my family got at the age of six was 'this boy is Oxbridge material'. His parents had both been to Oxford, he got a scholarship to a leadling public school. He ploughed the Oxbridge exams twice. He's done just fine.

You can’t study forensic science at Oxford. It’s not a degree course they offer.

Therefore we do talk about her going to Oxford & how to ensure it happens... you and she can't ensure it happens. There are far more suitable applicants than places.

@Delphigirl

the wonders of autocorrect....meant to say inherently. Nothing insidious 🙂