OK< I'll admit the G&T term just riles me

[Twiglett]

and I accept that there are children who are immensely talented or gifted

and I accept that my children are very bright but probably not geniuses (genii?)

and I also accept that parents of children who show exceptional ability need just as much help and advice as children who have SEN .. in fact I also accept that superlatively bright children do have SEN

so why does the G&T term get to me?

hmm?

blueshoes - I didn't think there were selective secondaries in the UK (although would not be surprised, am pretty ignorant about the UK education system).

I think my guess would be more like 1% or maybe less. The way the NZ program works is to pull just 1 or 2 students out of a large number of contributing schools, for one day a week.

I still think "seek it out" can be hard for children depending on their circumstances - not everyone has a museum or library nearby, or a parent prepared to take them there.

TBH, I think a lot of schools and teachers have more than enough on their plate anyway, so I don't think this is an issue that's going to be addressed any time soon. But interesting to hear about others' experiences. I should really sit down and think about where there's anything positive I could do rather than sitting here complaining on mnet.

No, you are right, perhaps my experiance here is not really relevant, as it was more of a teaching issue.

Although, I never felt the need to hide my ability, there was just no point in making the effort to show it off.

I will always remember sitting in the school hall when the certificates of merit were handed out, and I had tried so hard all year, had not got less than 90% in all my tests, and I was in all top classes ... and once you had your certificate you could go home.

I sat there right until the end, until I was sat there with a small group of really naughty boys - the ones who smoked behind the gym room - and deciding quite coherantly that I would never bother putting any effort in again. I was 12, and I swear down that my overall grades did not improve for 4 years, and never did again. I was attaining level 7 then, and got level 7 (c) for most of my GCSEs!

God, that's really sad looking back, I have never thought about it like that before!

Escape, you're absolutely right about the clever/lazy thing. DD1 is the laziest person I've ever met (apart from her dad, perhaps!). So whilst primary school was a doddle for her and she didn't have to lift a finger to stay at the top of the class, she has suddenly found that everyone at her selective school is fairly bright and she's going to have to work a damn sight harder if she wants to get into the top 50% of the class, rather than languish around the middle to bottom. She really has done very little this last year, but hopefully her exam results and report will galvanise her for next year, and it's better that she has found out this first year than just before her GCSEs. TBH, it's one of the reasons we chose a selective school for her, as we know she's lazy and will just sit back and relax if no-one is watching her. But the truth of the matter is that a clever child like her can make what she wants of the rest of her life: she can read, write, dress herself, socialise, look after herself ... in a way that a child with an SEN can't always. If my DD1 chooses to sleep her life away, that will be her problem, and hopefully she's clever enough to know that!

Sorry, Escape, I didn't see your last post before posting mine. Trouble is, it's all so much easier with hindsight, isn't it? I apparently have a very high IQ, but I've never really put it to good use. Having said that, I'm very happy and satisfied with my life and have no regrets, so I'm very lucky.
Although a lottery win would be much appreciated, thank you!

Yes I agree - children with SEN need more support, and FAR more help to ensure they get some quality of life as adults as well as children.

I used to get left in the library too- I'd forgotton that!

The lazy thing can be a problem when a child is stretched though. One of my best friends in the first year at Oxford was a lazy sod. He had managed to get straight A's without ever doing any work ever. I do think he's one of the brightest people I've ever met (life wise as well as academically). He was kicked out after the first year as he failed his exams- he'd needed to work for the first time in his life and had no idea how to do it.

Ultimately that was his fault though! If he'd been less lazy he could have stretched himself in other ways at school.

I weep for your lost education, Escapefrom. A dedicated teacher would give her right arm for a student like you.

Legalalien, I should have been clearer. No selective state secondaries in UK, just grammar (dying breed) or private.

Groaning, I too aced my primary exams (in fact, did not know the meaning of studying and was a lazy feck). But then at the selective exams for secondary (this is Singapore), I got 70% for mathematics [shock horror], rather than the 90% everyone else was hitting.

I discovered I actually had to study and practise. Was fine for GCSEs and A'Levels - no genius, I have to add. But that was the wake up call I needed to put in the effort. Hopefully, your dd's pride will spur her on soon.

Because it implies that all other children are neither of those things. Just run of the mill and totally unexceptional It riles me too twig.

OrmIrian, the G&T label means nothing, honestly. My kids couldn't possibly be more average and normal, thank goodness! They certainly don't need any special help or concessions made to help them, not extra money spent on them by a government that can't seem to afford to educate average children properly, let alone help those who genuinely need it if they're to be able to live normal, average lives when they become adults.

I'm sure you're right gamegirly. I just posted my instant unthinkin reaction to the OP tbh. We have a few children who are G&T in DS#1's class(so their parents tell me). All of whom are nice normal kids. But in one case the mother needs dropping of a steep cliff She rants on and on about how her DD isn't getting the push and stimulation she needs to succeed and how the school isn't investing in her child on and on and on....She kept talking about moving her DD but never did and they are going into Yr6 in September. And she still complains. Meanwhile my DS#1 was struggling for ages to gain average SATS results. It tends to get a little upsetting.

I was always at top or near the top of the class at school. But I never remember feeling embarrassed about it. But maybe it helps being female.

Shall I push her for you, OrmIrian?! I hate people like that, too. They don't seem to realise that they're the lucky ones really. As an earlier poster said, it is so easy and costs nothing to do extra work with a child at home if you think he or she needs stretching, surely?

Like you, I don't think, I just post whatever's in my head at the time, which is why I rarely make any sense!

In response to Twiglett's OP- yes the post riles me too. Over the years I have taught a number of children who have been particularly able in specific areas. I am struggling to recall a student whose ability so exceeded any of their classmates that is was truly exceptional. What is far more memorable is the number of children with SN whose needs I couldn't meet despite my best efforts because of my lack of knowledge; lack of resources- financial and personnel. It is without question, far, far easier to provide a curriculum that allows for the brightest children to be challenged and enriched; it is far more difficult to create the sort of classroom environment that allows children with a SN to make the appropriate progress. So, I entirely empathise with the parents of SN children posting here. Few G&T children perform at the same level in all areas of the curriculum and socially. Simply designating a particular percentage of any class G&T is a mockery.
But, if you were here in NSW, then your child would have the chance to take a test at the end of Year 4. If they score highly enough then they are invited to join an OC class at a nearby school for the rest of their primary education. OC stands for Opportunity Class ... [hmmm]

Message for Fembear - I "wilfully" ignore the state's/education establishment's current definition of gifted because it represents an enormous percentage of the population who are merely very able academically and intellectually. Gifted is about as "special" nowadays as an A at A Level.

Surely everyone wants their children to achieve their potential? At each end of the scale of achievement, extra resources can make a difference. A talented child footballer will improve with more football lessons from better coaches, and if the government chooses to allocate money for that purpose, I am not going to protest that more should be spent on those who cannot kick a ball. And it is the same for the top 5% academically.

Is 10% an 'enormous' percentage then?

I

Thank you, Lilymaid - you put in 2 lines exactly what I tried most ineloquently (is there such a word?!) to say in about 50. I really REALLY should have concentrated more at school ...

"I am not going to protest that more should be spent on those who cannot kick a ball"

No of course not. But unfortunately when 'those who cannot kick a ball' are actually those who may not be able to pass an exam or write an essay, I don't think that statement is so fair. Or are you saying that those children who struggle and get nowhere are only acheiving their potential?

part of the trouble is that the G&T programme (via NAGTY) was aimed at the top 5% nationally (meaning that around 2% of the pupils in DD1s non selective state comp were members). Now the govt has decided that the top 10% of every school need to be classed as G&T. That makes a lot of "ordinarily bright" children who are being lumped in with what was a much smaller group, who don't necessarily have the same needs.
I'd love to know when I'm supposed to find time to stretch DD1 out of school, by the time she's worked her way through the stacks of (pretty irrelvant) homework she's set - creating a flowchart to show the different steps to be taken to cook something in FT , anyone? Glueing and sticking pictures of clothes to make a catalogue with French captions? And it all has to be perfect (this is a recognisd trait among gifted children, and does cause problems).

I have twin boys at opposite ends of the spectrum. I expect the school to spend more time ensuring DT2's needs are met in order for him to get through all aspects of the cirriculum . Dt1 sails through everything and although obviously DT1 is just as important as Dt2 the simple fact is that DT2 has greater needs at school. If Dt1 is not reaching his potential because he is ahead of his peers and bored then although its the schools job to stretch him as far as possible , there is no way that i would want extra resources to go to him before ensuring that children like DT2 got adequate resources to attain an acceptable standard.
If I want to stretch Dt1 further then i would expect to do that myself

By aloha on Wed 01-Aug-07 17:55:15

sorry, long dead conversation.

damn right clever kids DO need special treatment, having worked in schools with adhd kids and clever kids, how unfair is it to let a child tell a teacher to f!!! off then get to surf the web instead of attending the school lesson of maths or english whereas good old joe blogs who gets on with his work and produces good scores for sats, as we all know schools love our kids for their sat results, never gets to surf web for being disrespectful and rude to teacher because guess what....joe bloggs has been taught respect at home,
how many of the adhd children can honestly say you never tried your kids ritulin, just because you fucked up and know one listened or understood, where would you be with out the great four letters.....ADHD, those who know their own kids that genuinly have ADHD will not respond to this as they are as sick of you as the rest of us..teach them some manners from the start, rather than thinking of the benefits, will your kids thank you in 20 years, i doubt it!!