Can a child be advanced/precocious/G&T without being ASD?

[ReallyHadEnoughOfThisNow]

We have a very bright 10 year old DS (the school/CAT testing puts him in top 1-5% of children his age and gives him a reading age of 16+).

Since he started Y5, which is on a middle school system of changing teachers for each subject, school say he's finding it hard to cope. They say he chooses not to participate in some lessons, especially if he doesn't see the point (e.g. as an atheist he says he doesn't want to do RE - since we've told him he has to he has been better with this). They also say that he e.g. argued with the headteacher about why he had to do a piece of work he thought was pointless. He's also choosing to help teachers or read at lunch/break instead of socialising.

Ds is always positive/neutral about school, saying its 'fine'. Although he doesn't like the (huge) amount of homework he gets, he generally does it without a fuss.

School are now insisting that he is ASD. They've done a GARS assessment on him, which shows him as 'requiring substantial support' - he currently has no support, but apparently is still doing academically. We wouldn't agree with how they've scored many points - and when we scored him (trying to be objective/negative) his score was less than half of the schools).

From our point of view he is a funny and lovely little boy, but possibly 'quirky'. As he's always had a great vocabulary we've spoken to him 'as an adult' - which possibly explains why he is happy to argue with the head, as he doesn't see himself as less important? He gets on fine with people he knows well. He has 5 year old sister and they get on really well, playing random made-up games of 'let's pretend...' although he does occasionally annoy her by 'pulling rank' and telling her what to do, he also explains stuff really patiently and helps her. He enjoys a range of stuff - video games, reading, thunderbirds, Lego Nexo knights, drama classes, skiiing etc.

He's never had any sensory issues, is pretty well behaved (he was an angelic toddler - no tantrums after 1, as a 2 year old, when he looked round to check what reaction he was getting and got up again when there wasn't one), although he is strong willed, so will argue if he doesn't agree with us.

He finds it harder than most to make friends - if they're doing something he doesn't like then he'd rather be by himself than join in - but is fine with people he knows well and is confident to speak to people - e.g. in shops/asking directions. He has a friend from an old school, who he sees as a true friend, although they rarely get to meet up, but get on well when they do.

I'm sorry this is such a massive post - I'm trying to include anything that could be relevant - but can anyone suggest what 'could' be wrong. Does it sound like ASD to everyone? Or could it just be that he is clever, doesn't see the hierarchy as important/isn't suited to the school environment? I've posted this in SNs too - as I'm not sure whether its more a G&T or SN question.

It’s not finding people boring, it’s not going to the party/social engagement in the first place as you are concerned about things you can’t control at the party - such as people being mean, unexpected things happening.

Finding some people boring is perfectly reasonable, finding all people boring on the other hand...

Another clue might be having the odd friend but always falling out with them (rigid thinking about that person having revealed themselves to be a write off - over multiple people) - no long term friends, no one ever being good enough long term.

The only thing we thought on the ASD assessments (presume this is a private one also) is that you pay a lot of money so there is a risk of ‘getting what you paid for’ although they are professionals so you’d really hope that this isn’t the case, you could pursue a much slower nhs dx.

Perhaps you have an extra hazard issue with private school if the extra support garners more money also.

Just picking up on a small point, it's great that you talk to him as an adult but you will need to nip arguing with the Head in the bud - he isn't an adult and he is going to need to respect authority to some extent or school life is just going to end up way more difficult that it needs to be for him.

Case in point:
Me: why aren't you doing the work?
Year 9 boy: you're too controlling. I find it difficult to respect people who tell me what to do.
Me: that is literally my job.

Not great!

Penguin, if the diagnosis would get him extra time in his GCSEs then I'd do it I think.

Two things. One is that a very high number of gifted children are also on the spectrum, but some also aren't.

The other is that what school think of as his 'peer group' may not be what he thinks of as his peer group and that's what causing the issues.

(And actually there is a third, which is that some schools prefer to concentrate on social issues rather than deal with ability levels).

DD (v able, similar kind of reading age at 9 or 10) had the ed psych brought in during Yr1 because they were 'worried about her social issues', but the only conclusion was that she socialised perfectly well on her own terms and was bored out of her wits and short of peers. She's now in a fairly selective secondary and absolutely at the heart of everything.

If they really wanted an assessment, you're not going to get an ASD diagnosis unless he really does have it, so there is nothing to lose by going ahead. But realistically, they don't sound like they want to accommodate him, and if he weren't ten, I'd suggest you look for another school. But I'd be looking long and hard at secondary options now.

The only thing we thought on the ASD assessments (presume this is a private one also) is that you pay a lot of money so there is a risk of ‘getting what you paid for’ although they are professionals so you’d really hope that this isn’t the case

It's not. If there was a way for people to access SN or SEN dx solely through payment, there would be so much outcry by other professionals who dealt with the obviously mis-diagnosed children that the scam would not last long.

Many qualified professionals who diagnose ASD work say 1 day per week for the NHS and the rest of the time in their private practise.
The diagnoses are carried out in exactly the same way, the professionals are exactly the same people, the waitlist for a private dx will be weeks, the NHS waitlist is around 2 years in many areas.

Also, Autism in children is often dxd in the NHS and privately by a team of professionals rather than one individual, Paed, Ed Psych, OT and SLT.

As onsen said, "you're not going to get an ASD diagnosis unless he really does have it"
Absolutely! If someone is autistic, they are autistic whether or not they are dxd.
A dx cannot make someone autistic, nor can refusing a dx make someone NT.

Deirdre Lovecky's work on gifted kids with HFA/aspergers is worth reading: article, book
The large majority of gifted kids do not have ASD. However, a minority do and it's compatible with the very highest levels of intellectual functioning. e.g. Paul Dirac almost certainly had ASD.
It's a spectrum condition and for borderline cases one person's "quirky" may be another's ASD depending on the criteria and threshold they use. While issues may first occur in school, it's primarily a clinical issue and a clinician working regularly with ASD, not an ed psych, is best placed to do a definitive assessment.

Of course it's possible to be highly gifted without being on the autistic spectrum. Some intellectually gifted kids have excellent social and emotional intelligence as well.

It doesn't really matter, though, does it? This is about your son, and none of us can actually say whether he has ASD or not. If he does, he is still the same funny, lovely little boy that you describe. He just might need some additional support.

The school presumably have experience of supporting children with ASD, and they see your son interacting with his peers on a daily basis, so I wouldn't dismiss their perspective. However, they may be wrong.

Either way, whether he is on the spectrum or not, it sounds like your son could benefit from some support to develop his social skills/self-awareness. Is this something that you can explore for him?

They labeled him ASD because he chose not to participate in some lessons? That sounds willful first & foremost. I'm sure that ASD people aren't the only stroppy willful people in the world.

I think one thing to point is ASD is for life. So if it has come up now, you need to get a proper asessmemt done as this is not going away. Your child may be coping now with ASD (If he has it) but wait till he is in his 20s or 30s and needs to have a close relationship with someone - it's going to get really tough and that's when if he does have ASD, if he has had a diagnosis and treatment, he will find it much much easier to tackle.

Please don't be like those parents who live in denial. There is an entire thread on MN about partners of those that have Aspie that was diagnosed very recently. It is super super tough with many choosing to divorce. My DH has finally been diagnosed as Aspie and living with him is tough as hell. I wish he'd parents had seen the signs and done something, as he wouldn't have sent most of his life feeling like a crap son and husband, and I would have understood the reasoning behind his behaviour.

For the school, it's super extra work for a child to have AS. The school wouldn't have undergone the assessment over nothing. I would take him to the GP and ask for a formal medical assessment, so you know where are stand.

There was also a lovely lady on that MN AS partner support thread who said her daughter was diagnosed as a young child, had plenty of treatment/therapy/support etc, and as a result of that is really well adjusted and very happy and an empathetic adult. So it's not about how you feel about the diagnosis, it's about what is best for your child. As if he does have AS, it is will not go away with age, it will actually become much harder for him and those close to him.

And yes of course a child can be G&T and not have Aspergers. The majority of G&T kids don't have Aspergers.

Yes TwoM you are right. Although there are still times even now where I fall into feeling sad and worried if we did the right thing, that it was absolutely right to have a diagnosis. My daughter was first referred to the local assessment unit at the hospital by an educational psychologist at the nursery. Afew months later when our appointment came in we spent half a day with them (an autism specialist and two paediatricians) and then another psychologist in the team visited her in nursery twice, about 3 months apart so their assessment was thorough.
This all happened just before she started school 5 years ago.
She is 9 now and is thriving in mainstream school. We have SEN meetings 2-3 times a year so we can ensure communication is going well. She gets enhanced transitions each year too and if we have any issues, we can go and speak to them anytime.
Yes, she does have difficulties daily and it's becoming ever more apparent that she's different from her friends but we feel more equipped to support her now we know more about her condition. We encourage her to do different things to build her confidence, we can plan ahead to make things easier for her, we understand her anxiety and sensory issues and help her to cope more easily. She attends a special needs dentist where it is low arousal and now she is not afraid of the dentist.
So all in all a positive experience. Do I still feel down at times about it? Of course I do but as time goes on I realise that she wouldn't be who she is without autism and it makes her the wonderful and unique little person she is and I think it would have been far more stressful now without a diagnosis and with people consistently misunderstanding her and her needs.

He sounds like a great boy and you must be v proud. The slight worry I would have is the lack of inhibitions regarding authority at school.

Thanks so much for all of the thoughts, input and to everyone who has shared their own personal experiences. I genuinely really appreciate it and its so helpful to get new perspectives and ideas - instead of just re-running everything in my own head and getting stressed!

@extrastrongmints - thanks for linking to the article by Lovecky! Its very interesting reading and some of the points do ring true (slow output of writing certainly does!).

@onsen - very interesting about your dd - I suspect that the same is true of my ds, he absolutely can socialise in the right group, so perhaps if we can find a selective secondary then perhaps he'll find it easier to find a peer group there?

@lljkk "They labeled him ASD because he chose not to participate in some lessons? That sounds willful first & foremost."
He really can be willful when he likes - and if he's getting attention for it then I suspect he'll keep going, to see what reaction he gets.

@Aurea - Thanks we are very proud of him. :) And absolutely we are starting to work with him on respect and manners.

We've managed to get an initial appointment with a clinical psych in a few weeks time, so hopefully he will be able to assess ds. I've chosen to go with a guy who will do broad assessments, instead of just 'Is it ASD or not?' so hopefully they'll keep an open mind and we'll see what they come up with. At the end of the day if there are issues that ds can be helped with then it'll be a benefit to him.

What’s G & T?

Gifted and talented.

Op you might want to read “Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults “ .
There can be elements of giftedness that less experienced people might confuse with ASD, even when no ASD is present. Gifted children can find their peer group baffling , boring, or hard to engage with. This can then be read as the child being unable to engage with other children full stop, whereas the same child in with others of the same ability, or at the same level but older, might behave completely differently. Gifted children are often highly strung and sensitive, so that can also be misunderstood.
It is obviously important that a child who does have ASD is given appropriate support as early as possible, but I would try and get your child assessed by someone experienced in giftedness.
If it helps, everything in your post sounds normal to me for a very bright child, and nothing is suggesting added ASD.

From what you write it sounds like a "normal" academically bright but socially and cognitively immature child.

My DS1 is considered "gifted and talented", and he showed similar behaviour when he was younger. He never flat out refused lessons, but he would constantly challenge the teachers. Religion was particularly sore spot, where he just would not accept that they were being taught it at school. For him it was very black and white, and he wasn't mature enough to consider other viewpoints or benefits.

He grew out of it. And as RE/ RS developed into include philosophy, he is thriving and it's one of his favourite subjects!

He would spend his break helping out in the library rather than hanging out with friends. They even made a "librarian" badge just for him.

Now at 13 he is very popular with lots of friends, and just secured an a academic scholarship to one of the most prestigious public London schools, partly based on his social skills during the interview.

One of my DS was a bit similar bored with some of his peers , didn't always concentrate in class at prep school as work was easy. He had a very high reading age at about the same age as your DS and on testing was in top 2% IQ but he is dyslexic and borderline dyspraxic. Dyslexia presented as slow processing and he struggled with note taking at A Level,- it drives me mad when dyslexia is regarded as not being able to read- he is a voracious reader!! He is very literal ( but then so am I).
DS wasn't diagnosed until he was 17 until then was viewed as a bright but lazy boy who was good in class but written work a bit dodgy.!! It is really worth getting an assessment sooner rather than later.

I was about to recommend the Misdiagnosis book mentioned in previous post. We took DS for a ASD diagnosis after several concerns were raised by teachers and an Ed Psych. He did not have ASD but instead had high verbal IQ and dyslexia. He's quirky and eccentric but definitely does not have the significant difficulties required for a diagnosis of ASD. The Misdiagnosis book is very interesting and lists things that are common to both (DS ticks most boxes) and those specific to ASD (DS does not tick every box).