Teacher has just admitted he can't find work hard enough for my son - need to speak to head - but what should I say?

[DumbledoresGirl]

I have just been to a parents' consultation and ds2's teacher has just admitted to me (at the same time admitting he should not be admitting this!) that he can't find work hard enough for my son to do in Maths. Ds2 was classified as G&T in Maths in his last school but this school does not seem to have any G&T programme in place and has never done much to meet ds2's needs.

As a former teacher myself, I tried to pass on tips to his teacher at the parents'meeting in October but I am not sure if the teacher has taken on baord what I suggested. He really seemed quite despairing today of every being able to meet ds2's needs. I asked if there was a school policy in place but he said no. I asked if he would mind if I went to the head, and he said no, but please could I not drop him in it (!) He is a lovely man, I don't want to "drop him in it" but I do want my son educated.

I think dh and I have to go and see the head, but can anyone with G&T experience (teachers or parents) please help me with suggestions of what we should be asking the head/expecting of the school. I am not looking for solutions to be done at home eg Maths tutor, teaching him myself. I want the school to deliver my son's education.

Should all schools have a G&T policy? Should ds2 have been identified? What could be expected from the school if he was identified? What else can I ask?

Well, I will hold fire until he has done the papers I bought today. In fact, flicking through a book, I was horrified to see a question about "planes of symmetry" (and I used to teach the top Year 6 Maths group in the days when they could take Level 6 if they achieved well enough at Level 5) so I should know all that is taught at KS2!! Anyway, as I said, I was a bit taken aback as I felt sure that ds2 would not have encountered that yet. I showed it to ds1 who is in Year 6 now and the best in his year at maths (but not as talented as ds2) and he was able to handle the question, so clearly he has covered it, but ds2 did not have a clue. The head was talking about this yesterday: the fact that ds2 might have gaps in his knowledge as he simply has not encountered some concepts yet.

Despite saying at the beginning that I did not wish to teach my child myself, I can see that I am already identifying his areas of weakness....

Oh and Snorkle, the streaming in our school in Years 5 and 6 does go across both year groups so that bright Yr 5 children are taught with Yr 6. but as I said, what is the point of ds2 covering the Yr 6 curriculum in Yr 5 if he then cannot access the Yr 7 curriculum.

Anyway, I am beginning to get a clearer picture of what I need to push for, so thank you all again.

There do seem to be limits on maths...
DS yr 8 is at a very academic grammar and working at the top end of the extended maths set, apparently doing GCSe coursework, but the highest they can achieve is a level 8
Whereas the targets for other subjects are level 6 and 7.

I think ds does find the coursework easy enough, he always gets top marks and glowing reports and his maths teacher has told me is is extremely gifted at maths. But it has been a while since he complained about being bored. Which is good news, we buy him books that challenge mathematical thinking.

I think at primary school age you have to acknowledge and accept the limited resources though, it varies so widely throughout the country... I know ds was frustrated for the whole time at primary school...

That is oddly encouraging piffle - the thought that ds2 might only have to endure boredom for another 2 years! I know this does not apply to all primary teachers, but he does seem to have teacher after teacher who I suspect are not very comfortable themselves with the subject of Maths. At least at secondary school, I presume, the teachers are Maths specialists?

I think there are several specific difficulties with Maths.

Firstly it is a very linear subject, so it's difficult to set work which a class of children can access at different levels. Compare, say, writing a book review, or evaluating a science experiment. So providing differentiation in Maths really is a whole different ball game for teachers.

Also, very gifted Mathematicians don't actually require a lot of teaching IME. You explain a new concept - takes say 3 mins - they say "Oh, right, I get it" then they do a couple of practice questions and they've grasped the concept completely, and are ready for the next challenge. It really can be exhausting.

Ds1 (9) is highly able in all traditional 'academic' subjects; but because of the inherent problems with G&T Maths, we really haven't encouraged him in that area, and I must admit for the past couple of years he has been coasting in Maths: compared to say literacy where he is truly flying. But I'm hoping his secondary school will be able to challenge him.

But as a bright child myself when I was at primary/secondary school I was simply given textbooks/workbooks and I worked through them at my own pace; was occasionally called upon to explain a concept to other children; and I did my O Level a year early. But I'm not sure any of that benefitted me in any particular way.

You could suggest they get in touch with the Mathematical Association.

There is a list of possible resources on their website here .

Do they do the Maths Challenge?

I have found this on the www.ne.uk.net website go into the bit about G&T mathemtatics

Setting suitable learning challenges

Pupils who are gifted in mathematics should not be satisfied with being above average or with getting the right answer most of the time. Instead, they should be encouraged to strive for an in-depth understanding and mastery of mathematical topics and techniques. In particular, schools should aim to ensure that, by the end of key stage 4, their gifted pupils acquire the understanding, skills and enthusiasm needed to support higher level studies in mathematics and related subjects.

In most cases, pupils identified as being gifted in mathematics will remain with their peers for most of the time. Classroom activities should include scope for gifted pupils to express and develop their abilities, without making them or others feel uncomfortable. Gifted pupils should regularly tackle challenging work, which should be a routine feature of many (but not necessarily all) lessons and homeworks.

Pupils should be expected to complete the appropriate classwork and aim to get it completely correct. However, since they are likely to have fewer difficulties with standard classwork than their peers, there should also be scope for them to pursue a parallel extension course and/or progress more quickly through the programme of study.

For the successful long-term development of pupils who show early promise in mathematics, teachers need to ensure that they:

provide a thorough grounding in basic techniques, enabling gifted pupils to achieve a far higher degree of mastery than their peers;

routinely challenge pupils to reflect on, and to understand, the connections between different parts of the subject;

regularly expect gifted pupils to tackle harder problems, beyond the requirements of the standard curriculum;

nurture their interest in, and love of, mathematics.

sorry www.nc.co.uk

dd1 is on G& T at school primarily for literacy but well ahead in all the academis subjects but it was only today I realised how easily she takes to maths problems. There was a sum on another (contraversial thread ) on here and I gave it to her, and she did it staright off, so I made it harder (bigger numbers/more adding in it) and she said its just the same and straight out with it again.We went to my Mams fo rlunch and she found my Dads sudoku book and has spent the afternoon doing them.Must be very difficult to teach when kids get it that quick (then want more!)

no I give up and have cut and paste it#

www.nc.uk.net/gt/mathematics/inclusion.htm

here you go cece!

Gosh thanks for all this. I am thinking of printing some of this stuff from the websites and giving them to the class teacher!

Yes, ds2 has that astonishing ability to understand and apply concepts after the minimum of explanation. I got him to look at a KS2 practice paper today. There were a couple of things he had not come across before but, once I explained it to him, he was able to instantly work things out. As a former teacher, I was aware that most children would have needed a lot more explanation. Ds2 describes his experience in Maths lessons in these terms, ie that the teacher explains something and he is able to get on with the work but has to listen to "the same explanation another three times!"

He really needs to be able to access the Y5 and 6 stuff now though doesn't he, not just from sept. And occasional days at local secondaries are not going to cut the mustard as the poor chap will be bored sensless in Y6 repeating all the stuff he's done in Y5 so they really need to sort out some strategies now for what they are going to teach him in Y6. At my dc's school one of the Y5 children is currently doing maths with the Y9's. apparently finds the behaviour expectations tricky but flying up near the top of the class academically. presume he will do GCSE maths next year (hge's in the Y9 maths stream that does it a year early).

DDgirl I have to say up front that I think you need a maths tutor. I of course don't know your personal circumstances, but if you can afford it, get one.
I'm working on thin data, but I don't think your son has access to what I'd call a maths teacher at all.
Merely being a Ruth Kelly, should not make a year 4 get past his teacher, not a Richard Feynman either, maybe a Carl Gauss, but there was exactly one of him.
Would you expect any year 4 to beat his games teacher at arm wrestling ? Many maths "teachers" are the equivalent of paraplegics who hate sport.
Depressingly few maths teachers are properly qualified, I suspect you've hit that.

That being said, I'm not sure the average maths tutor is what you need. They typically are used by better off parents to patch over limitations in their kids. Nothing wrong with that, but fixing is a different skill from building.

I'm a pushy parent, and I'd be pressing other buttons by now.

First and obvious button is the black and yellow one with "eject" written upon it.

Your state school isn't serving your child. As someone who's been there, I sympathise, but you can't fix the system.
You can run away.
Taking DDs statements at face value, her DS is a prime candidate for a bursary to a private school. They are more likely to have a real mathematician. Many teachers of maths aren't qualified to deal with average kids, much less stars.

Of course it should be a fighting retreat, but I don't think you are going to get what you want, but I believe you can make things less bad.

Next button is the nearest university library. As a taxpayer you have the right to read books there. Yes you do. I can dig up the bits of paper that will get that done, if necessary.
If you are in London, I can explain how to get a (relatively) cheap borrowing ticket from university libraries.

As a pushy parent, I'd be on the phone to some real, actual mathematicians. Explain the situation, and asking them to help you understand if your child is as good as you think. Again with all due respect, you can't possibly know.
Many top grade people didn't think their support at school was great, some teachers seem actively hostile; and this leads many to what I will characterise as a "protective" attitude to young talent. Some will politely tell you that they can't help, but a few calls will get you in front of a good guy.

Personally, once I had expert (ie outside the school system) advice that my kid really was a star, I'd ask the tame maths prof to recommend a PhD student to tutor. They're not expensive I'd guess 10-15 per hour.
You might ask why the state doesn't do that...
Would be pathetically cheap, but arts and sports have a higher priority.

Next buttons are right in front of you. There are huge amounts of maths on the web. As roisin rightly says most of the best mathematicians are self starters.
Wikipedia is a good start, and in early days you will be able to track it yourself.