Just don't know where to turn - at a complete loss and need help

[goshgosh]

sorry this is long but i am so upset at being in tears in meetings that i have to get it out.

My ds1 is 6 and has always been described from Nursery onwards as 'exceptionally bright.' WHen he started foundation year at school I was called in on a number of occasions for his disruptive behaviour and truculent attitude, which astonished me initially as i have never thought or see him as a 'problem' child or one to have 'behavioural problems' iyswim. His teacher would tell me he was very very bright and it was 'just his behaviour that is letting him down'.
This followed through to year 1 where his teacher told me in her 40 years ecperience in teaching, he is 'one of the brightest chlldren she has ever taught', but by year 2 (the same teacher) is saying he is also the 'only child she has never been able to get through to' with regards his behaviour. Again it was related to me by her that 'he is potentially capable of acheivieng anything/is such a highly intelliegent boy/' followed by 'gifted'. Feeling that his teacher was indeed doing her best but was getting nowhere with him i arranged to see the deputy head and Senco regarding him. I reiterated that his teacher whom, i feel must have good experience having been in teaching for 40 odd years, has repeatedly told me he exceptionally bright etc etc and could his 'brightness' (was loathe to use any terms which might be perceived as pretentious parent thinking their child is the bees knees) could be somethingto do with his behaviour problems. Senco was very flippent regarding this and brought to my attention an incident where ds1 got angry in football at not being in his chosen team and kicked a bench and stroppoed off saying 'well that was nothing to do with intelligence was it?' which i had to agree with at the time, but since reading various information on bright/gifted children, i can also see the point of view that if he is feeling frustrated/bored etc in class then surely this can potentionally carry on or spill over into PE? So anyway, she suggested an IEP and i requested a meeting with the Ed Psyche. Got the IEP which was a waste of paper to be quite frank. ANy 'strategies' in dealing with his frustrations/anger/attitude to work were ones which, in my opion sould have been common sense and implemented ayway and as for the 'strategies implemented by parents '; well, they were things we as parents and a family follow anyway! I told the senco this and she said 'yes yes, i expect you do, its just a basic things that i kept in their for you ' said in a very 'kind' yet slightly patronising manner iyswim.

A week later it is decided that ds1 will not be referred to the Ed Psyche as 'his behaviour has been a bot better hasn't it?' I insist i want to see the Ed Psyche as he has had this behavioural problem since foundation so i doubt its going to suddenly stop now and express hos i feel they are treating the symptoms with the IEP and not looking into the underlying casue of his attitude. Oh forgot to mention it was suggested i take him to the Dr, which horrified me as he has no problems at home other than normal 6 year old behaviour that evevry parent i have spoken to deals with iyswim. But i took him to Dr who was in turn horrified, took one look at ds1 and could see thathad he a real 'rpoblem' that needed medicating then i would have been banging on his door i n tears a lot sooner than at 6 years. Dr said push for Ed Psyche with school and if they mentioned or suggested that i neeed to have him seen by his GP (by which they were inferring medication for ADHD i presume) then he would call the school and tell them that this was absolutely not necissary and not the path to go down etc etc.

SO i finally get my meeting with Ed Psche (just for me to discuss things with her as they are still not referring Ds1 as dont think he needs it etc) meeting was a joke. WHen talking about strategies to deal with his behaviour, it was I that was telling the Ed Psyche things and she was saying 'hmmm, that would be a good idea, yes, write that down and mention that t his teacher' I came out feeling i shold be invoicing her for the hour i spent giving her ideas!'

SO another parents meeting with his teacher yesterday and no surprise, we still have the same problems. Basically, the work he does do is excellent but a lot of the time he refuses point black to do work which he thinks he will not be able to complete to his high standards (at home we have always said your best is good enough but he is such a prefectionist) His reading has always been of a high level. He basically learnt to read in a couple of weeks - one week he was starting the next he was rushing ahead at a rate of knots. He refuses to take home the books at school unless they are information books (which his teacher allows him as she knows what he is reading at home as is aware of his thisrt for knowledge which she says is incredible) He is reading the anthony Horowitz 'Alex Rider' collection having read all the Famous Fives and Secret Sevens. He loves spys and all that and after reading a few Horrible Henrys found then a bit boring. He queries everything and in foundation would get frustrated when he wanted to talk to his teacher about 'where life began' and she told him 'we are doing shapes today'. SO basically at age 4 he was asking me 'where did the first human come from Mummy? you need a dmummy and a daddy to make a baby so where did they come from?' I explained about evolution and the ape theory but that didnt answer his quastions 'but where did the first ape come from' 'if all life started from the sea, where did the first tiny creature come from'. He gets very frustrated when talking to a boy at school who is a christian, as Ds1 questions 'how do you know god exists? WHy dont you believe in Buddha?' I tell him to be respectful of others beliefs and he says he is but he just wants to understand why some people believe one thing and others something different.

Basically, when i looked up about 'exceptionally bright' and 'gifted' children' on the web including NAGTC site, I sobbed so much as they described my son like they knew him. WIth him being my first i had nothing to compare him to but as his brother is 2 years younger i can now see that so much he did from such a young age was 'exceptional'. I am crying while writing this now as I feel i dont know where to turn. Disruptive behaviour appears to be something 'gifted' children can show, and although i have his teacher telling me how exceptionally bright he is and throwing terms like gifted at me, I feel that his school foes not want to deal with it or use this is a rason behind his behaviour problems. His teacher has told me that although she see's his ability and potential, his behaviur is pulling him down and he will ot do well in SATS etc if he continues to refuse to complete work as she has limited work to show the moderator. I feel i have shown that i want to help my son, but feel the school is failing me and that i am in turn failing my son.

I am not using his 'brightness' as an excuse for his behviour. I want to help him not be so hard on himself, not to have such high expectations of himself and to enjoy his life. Yet at the moment, if the subject is not on that interests him, is not one where he see's the point in it, is so easy for him that he does a bit and gets fed up or the other end of the scale where he assess it and starts it and thinks he will not be able to do it easily or to his very high perfect standards then he refuses to continue. SO many things have come so easily to him ie reading that when he is faced with something that he has to think about and 'try' a bit harder to do, he tells me his 'brain doesn't work that way'. I have told him most children have to try hard at many things and he is lucky that he finds most things so easy, but in maths (which his teacher says he has NO problems with ) often he refuses point blank to do the work as he doesn't see the point/brain doesn't work that way.

Sorry, i have gone on and on but i am so upset and dont know where to turn. WHere do I stand? What can i do to help my son?

Ed pysch - like clumsymum suggests - though it can be a fascinating insight, the ed psych process doesn't always produce the practical help you need - though I would have a search on roisin's posts - I think she used a private ed psych who was able to give them practical, apply-able classroom (and home) ideas for a very bright boy.

We saw the same outfit frogs mentions (funny that, frogs - I didn't realise - we must have a gossip separately) and though ds loved his assessment, and the assessor really enjoyed ds, we got a recommendation along the lines of "gifted children are statistically unusual, so they are likely to be unusual in other ways too, so let's all give ds some 'elbow room' and I wish him well". Which buoyed me up for a time but wasn't of enduring use when the school problems didn't go away (they're still there, he's now 7.5 and in year 3).

Just to give you a picture: my ds has just been kicked out of a tutoring group, on the basis of "when he bothers he gets 93% so he doesn't need us, when he can't be bothered we can't make him & this affects the others so we don't need him".

I'll be watching this thread too!

Oh, just one other thing - we too have had the school being incredulous when we say our son's no trouble (the opposite) at home. The thing that's helped there is that my ds is completely divine on school trips - he is the child most engaged, asking the liveliest questions, etc. - so that's helped the school "see" the child we know.

Is there anywhere where your ds's school can see the real boy that you know?

Just to let you know, I've been inspired by this thread, and spent the last hour on the NAGC's helpline, talking to a lovely lady who has made a few suggestions about directions to take, both with school and with ds.

Lots of hard work ahead of us tho'

Thanks.

that's good news clumsymum

I have phoned my GP and asked for a referral to an Ed Psyche which, he is very happy to do. I will call the NAGC helpline when i feel i have processed all the information that is spinning around my head right now

I feel a little let down as today Ds1 took some information in about the 'oddities' of the moon landings which he found very interesting. His teacher disregarded his interest with 'But no one will understand that.' It wouldnt have hurt her to just tell him it was interesting and well done for finding it out, but maybe the other children might not be as intersted as he was.

Goshgosh (are you clumsymum? What did NAGC say? I'm delighted they were helpful to you.)

• your initial post rang such bells with me. To the extent that after the first few paragraphs I flicked back to that date, presuming it was an old thread written by me 3 years ago

Many of your experiences are very similar to yours, including comments made by a very experienced yr2 teacher.

Briefly - to encourage you - we are now 3 years on, and ds1 is thriving. We paid for a private ed psych (£350) when ds1 was 7.5, and it was the best thing we ever did. It was a complete turning point for us, and I cannot recommend it strongly enough for you.

This wasn't to 'prove' how intelligent he way, but rather to discuss the behavioural stuff (which was our main concern) in the context of a very able child, and with an EP who was very experienced with bright children.

I'd be more than happy to share some experiences with you offline if you want to CAT me.

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He needs to be moved to an academdic private school as soon as can be arranged. If he's that bright he may get some sort of scholarship. I'm sure he'd fit in fine somewhere like Westminster Underschool, Haberdasher's Boys,Collet Court (that's all London area)

Of course, a highly academic private school environment may be the worst thing you could possibly give him.

It depends on his temperament, your family, his preferences and a range of other delicate individual factors known only to you and him. Don't be swayed into believing you only have one option.

I dobn;t agree. They are ideal places for clever children because every other child in the class is clever so you're working at a much higher level all the time and they can also if the child is brilliant easily accommodate that with extra lessons too. Just have a look at these web sites.

www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/page.aspx?id=8339 - bursaries at Colet Court
www.westminster.org.uk/entrylevels/7-8plus.asp
www.habsboys.org.uk/prep/HOME.htm

Quite, Xenia, if you assume that all "clever children" are as identical as sausages and have exactly the same needs and characteristics.

There are many different ways of catering for a bright child's need for additional stimulation. Private schooling and a highly academic environment certainly is not the only options and is not always best.

I think as a general rule if they're very clever they benefit from being with children who are the same. Surely that's fairly obvious. These schools ensure they don't think they're some kind of strange unusual thing, nor the bee's knees. They often are just average there actually depending on the child so it's a lovely environment with all the other advantages of the best private schools too.

A lot of parents of very clever children try to get them into the best academically selective schools for obvious reasons. The main thing to avoid is that they get bored at school if they stay where they are.

"A lot of parents of very clever children try to get them into the best academically selective schools for obvious reasons"

This is true. But the results for the child and the family ( academically and socially) are certainly not always good.

There are many different options. It would be unfortunate if the OP received the impression that only one sensible route was open to her and her son. That's simply not the case. Choosing an educational environment for an exceptional child is much more complex than posting a shape into a hole. Some very bright children are suited to a highly academic private school environment and take to it like ducks to water. Others are temperamentally or otherwise unsuited to such an environment, founder and do very badly, compromising their potential and their futures.

The OP will know best which of the many options are appropriate for her child and her family.

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Every other child in a private school is not clever - every other child in a private school has parents who can pay for them to be there.

Goshgosh's ds sounds like a child who needs careful, gentle handling to help him achieve all he is capable of,and more importantly to learn how to be happy while achieving it. It doesn't seem to me that an academic hot-house is the place to do that, but a confident welll managed main strean school where he can learn to rub along with all sorts of people and be mentally and physically (boys need so much exercise!) at the same time. 5 think somebody has already suggested this, so sorry if I'm repeating, but how about getting an independent ed psych report and taking it round the other local schools, asking the Head how they would manage your ds. Then go by your gut instinct and move him. Another thing that might help is lots of outside stimulus - could he learn a language, or a musical instrument, or even archery?

I agree it depends on the child although we used to think in the UK that the very brightest should be streamed off and educated with others like them. I know that's gone out of favour. I also agree that even at the 3 schools I mentioned not every child will be genius level although a good number genuinely will be which you probably won't find in state schools so you get the critical mass in those kinds of private schools. All round probably the better choice than trying to support them in some grotty or not so grotty state school or trying to teach them at home when you've never taught a child with an IQ of 150+ before.

"we used to think in the UK that the very brightest should be streamed off and educated with others like them"

You still do think that Xenia. You've said it at least twice.

I agree with curlew that 1) the majority of children at private schools are financially advantaged, not intellectually - the two are in no way linked, and 2) a child who needs careful and sensitive handling would be unlikely to do well cast into a highly pressurised selective environment.

It's far too simplistic to say "He needs to go to an academic private school as soon as you can get him in", which is pretty much what you did say.

Just wondering, Xenia - have you ever been into a State school - be it "grotty"or even (thanks for the flowers!) "not so grotty"?

Goshgosh, I think your ds sounds a bit like my dd1. We did look at the v. academic private schools for her at 7+ (she was offered a couple of places in fact) but we were put off by the pressured and competitive atmosphere -- dd1 at the time was very anxious, very competitive in a slightly chaotic and destructive way, and extremely faffy and disorganised, as well as sometimes quite stroppy. I wasn't sure that a very high-powered academic machine would have been sufficiently caring and supportive to help her with the things she struggled with. The school we did fall in love with (and with hindsight we should have sent her to) was a non-selective prep with very good academic results for their mixed intake. The head very obviously liked dd1 as a person, which most teachers didn't, and I'm sure they would have managed to cater for her strengths and support her weaknesses.

I think for a very square-peggy kind of child it is a question of surveying all the available options with an open mind, and trying to work out where your child will be both stretched and supported.

Xenia's views on education seems to be underpinned by a conviction that children whose parents are wealthy enough to afford private education are brighter, more successful and, well, nicer than children whose parents send them to ordinary state school. Which is, in my privately educated (scholarship, natch) opinion is bigoted claptrap.

I just wanted to say if you are spending lots of time doing stuff with him that he finds interesting etc anyway perhaps seriously look at the home ed route - you don't have to educate them 5 hours a day - sounds like with the net and supervision he will probably educate himself!

I think you will struggle to find a school that can give him what he needs.

I think if he were mine (my ds1 is a little like this, but younger) I would aim to provide the additional stimulation he needs outside school hours - you know him best and you can follow his interests and see what sparks his imagination. I would make sure that he is happy and secure at school, has reasonable relationships with teachers and peers and is performing well - you should be able to get that in a good state school. Then look at things to do outside school - anything he likes, visits to historical/archeological sites, scientific sites of interest (planetarium, science museum, micrarium etc), sporting activities, martial arts, amateur theatre, art classes, chess club - anything that fascinates him and allows him to burn off some of his intellectual and physical energy.

That would be my route, I think. I'm prepared to be flexible and to be led by my observation of his personality, his ability and his emotional needs.

There are a lot of good ideas on this thread, I would consider all of them if I were you. He sounds like a lovely and very exciting child.

G, I don't have that view. Many private schools are stuffed full of children as thick as a plank. I mentioned 3 particular schools that I think are good with very clever children in London where he would be with other clever children and would be stretched and probably have a good time too. Sadly there is no state school provision for very clever children any more, is there? You're just left to flounder which is why the numbers going to university from private schools are so much higher than in the 1950s when we had state grammar schools. It's very very unfair on those brighter children but obviously some of them manage to come through.

I went to university with many fiercely bright and self-confident individuals who came from excellent state schools and did very well. Your view seems very two dimensional to me. Many, many exceptionally bright children do better in a more nurturing and less pressurised environment than the most selective private schools. I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered as one of a range of options open to the OP - but your posts indicated that it was THE option to take, which is not good advice IMO.

Several of the largest LEAs in the country still do operate the grammar school system. And most State schools do in fact have programmes for particularly bright children. But this is all beside the point. Goshgosh's ds is obviously very bright and needs to be challenged academically. But he also needs - probably more urgently-to be helped to learn how to be happy with who he is. His intellect is only a tiny part of who he is. A school which can do this is where he needs to be IMO, not an academic hot-house. Go and look at all the schools in the area, goshgosh, and go by your gut instinct - you know your ds best!