What does good differentiation look like?

[catkind]

DD is due to start school Sept 16, and is showing signs of being very ahead in academic stuff, e.g. she's reading fluently now.

She's very different from DS and I wouldn't rule out sending her to a different school, though obviously it would be less than ideal. What are we looking for in a school? What questions should we ask?

Phonics worries me particularly as DS spent a lot of time in reception learning phonics, and DD knows as far as I can tell everything he learned in that time. Should she wait for the others to catch up? Or be taught on her own? Or is there some middle ground? I'm worried that she will get into bad habits in reading and spelling if she isn't taught phonics at the level where she's at. Perhaps that's a daft thing to worry about and she'll just pick it up the way she's picked up reading so far. But then again it seems a bit arrogant to say she doesn't need teaching.

Maths I am more able to cover at home, though I guess there will be less time around school than there is around playgroup for her to follow her interests.

So, what do we actually want, ideally? I'd like to go to open days in September-October and ask questions, but what questions, and what answers are we looking for? And I guess I'm thinking about reception-year 1 as that's all we've seen so far with DS, but also what do we need to think about for further up the school?

Yes, I challenged the HT. First I went back to the teacher though and asked her if I had misheard.
The HT and I fell out in a major way about it. She denied it and assured me that it wouldn't happen.
Then by February that year, there was a parent night and I saw the work DS had been given fro the first time. The HT felt that she needed to come to my meeting. It was blatantly obvious by every measure possible that DS had made no progress whatsoever - even by their own level measuring. The HT gave me some rubbish about plateauing. The school complained that DS was doing the work too fast and told me to tell him to slow down.
It makes my blood boil to think about it even now.

I ended up telling the HT explicitly what I thought of her stewardship of the school generally, and in particular how she had failed in her duty to support a clearly struggling young teacher.

After that we limped to the end of the year and I moved the children to a new school for year 3.

Then deja vu happened... the experienced Y4 teacher said exactly the same thing that Y2 teacher had, except her excuse was that some children were so far behind that she didn't have time to teach DS anything new. To be fair, at least she had the decency to come to me and volunteer it.

Again I went to see the HT. I suggested that if the teacher could not provide for DS, maybe he could find teaching resources elsewhere in the school? He said he'd think about it. About a month later he suggested I teach DS in the evenings and he offered some G&T materials to help.

Goodness, var, were we dealing with the same school?

We'd had good teachers until Yr2, who'd put in some effort towards finding extension work for DD even though they'd didn't really have the time or resources. Then we got Jaded Teacher, who basically announced that he wasn't going to teach her and it didn't matter.

By this stage we had already established a long and not entirely amicable relationship with the head and deputy, because stuff that was promised as extension work would materlalise for a couple of weeks and then go again. They'd even had the Ed Psych in who'd recommended some other work but this never happened. (DD had been really acting out at home because she was bored).

So we went back to them, but the head wouldn't challenge the teacher at all. Went to and fro for about a term.

This culminated in us getting a bit of work back that a) was about two years behind what DD could do, b) she hadn't bothered to complete and had doodled all over instead, and practiced writing her name ten different ways on, and c) hadn't been marked. We got a full apology from the school, but moved her at Christmas.

New school has been fantastic.

The one lesson I have learned from this is that you can't change a school, it's like trying to turn round a supertanker. You could become a governor and challenge things, but that's not going to fix it in time for your child. The choice is almost always going to be between moving or working round them.

you can't change a school, it's like trying to turn round a supertanker

That's it exactly. I knew Ds2 was reasonably able before he started school but as DS1 was the same, i didn't think it was anything that unusual.

Looking back, the signs were there but if I am honest some of the stuff the DC did when they were tiny just unnerved me and I blocked it out. Some posters are on here asking about their one year olds but I'd never even heard of G&T back then and if I had, then I wouldn't have thought it relevant anyway.

So, I wasn't looking for a school with a good G&T policy the first time around and when it became clear that the DCs are very able, I at first assumed the school would simply teach them. I even imagined that the teachers would be pleased - how naive was I?!

Then when I did start looking for a suitable school - when DS2 was in year 2 - I found they are thin on the ground.

IMO G&T is the last thing a school addresses, as its low priority: way behind SEN and behaviour and teaching those who will struggle to make level 4 by the end.

So, schools that are good at G&T tend to be good at everything else too, which makes them ultra-desirable to every other parent and consequently just about impossible to find places in as people won't move once they get their children into them.

So, I wasn't looking for a school with a good G&T policy the first time around and when it became clear that the DCs are very able, I at first assumed the school would simply teach them. I even imagined that the teachers would be pleased - how naive was I?!

Yes, I too assumed this. And never thought I would be treated to the years of a the word game: "You are deluded about your child's ability because..."

I raise you a variation of that, which is 'we are worried about her social skills', as though that some how cancells out any need to provide appropriate work. (And funnily enough, the new school have never even noticed a problem there...)

Maybe we should organise a game?

1 point for every time you've been told:-
Your child is too far ahead
Don't get hung up on levels
Your child will do well whatever
Reading is about much more than being able to decode
Maths isn't just about arithmetic
It will be much better next year.
Wait until October half term to give me a chance to assess your child

2 points for when they get personal:
You are deluded
What do you know about the curriculum or teaching
You must be hot-housing
You are a pushy parent

3 points for when they offer to include you or try to bar you
Teach him yourself
Leave the teaching to us

10 points for anything more creative

1000 bonus points if you actually find a school that will teach you child for two successive years in a row.

And how many for 'You're hurting my feelings'? That astoundingly is what Jaded Teacher said when we told him DD was finding the maths boring.

But we'll win on bonus points I think, DD's current school is actually quite interested in the possibilities of teaching her. She (DD) asked for harder spellings. One of this week's is paediatrician.

I think Jaded teacher sounds likes she may be in a league of her own. All my experiences have been bog standard.

In answer to the Op though, when I think about it, I don't know what a well differentiated school looks like. I've only seen it at class level.

At class level, it looks like your child is just treated like the others i.e. they get work that they find challenging sometimes. So, the scene looks normal!

If you can, ask the Mum whose child is leaving Y6 at the top of the top set what she thinks. If she looks happy (and not because she's relieved to be finally getting out of if) then you are on a winner.

DS could read very fluently before school. He was given his own books and was worked with separately for literacy.

ToysRLuv - what happened when the other children had learned to read fluently too - say by year 3 or 4? Was your DS still ahead of the class, or did he migrate to working with the top set?

He is still in his first year, so no idea. I think the others will catch up sooner or later and he will not need to be differentiated for any longer. No idea if they do sets or anything. We are in Scotland.

DD is was a fluent reader on starting school. She now works with the top group in Yr4, and did last year too, but there isn't that much actual 'literacy', mostly topic work.

She and a few others get differentiated homework, and DD does a bit of grammar instead of reading aloud to the teacher.

Her assessed level probably is ahead of this, but it's the content and subtleties of psychology that would be beyond her for now.

They just call it the top table in primary.

The problem that I don't know the answer to is what would be the ideal thing to happen if your child stays ahead, or pulls further ahead.

DS2 was ahead in maths in year 1, and has stayed that way despite various attempts by the school to get him to stop making progress. DS1 is v. similar and has now reached a point where his GCSEs are 3 years off but with a bit of effort,, he could do the maths one next year. But then what?

He wouldn't want to do his A level years ahead of the rest of his year, and he wouldn't want to start his A level course having had a long break.

As background, ds's school has a full-time TA in each class and another TA most of the time, presumably supporting certain kids ('does languages' is all I know). Is that more support than most KS1 teachers get?

Until ~5 years ago it was the school everyone wanted to avoid, but a teacher went on a secondment to learn headship and returned and it's now a very positive place that so far is actually practicing what it preaches about inclusion, supporting all children, etc. Most of the KS1 teachers were NQTs a couple years ago but theres's a bunch of older teachers too. Very few of the Y6 kids were there in Y2 let alone Reception - it's had huge turnover. But generally the parents may not have had much education themselves but are going to make sure their kids learn.

I don't know if other schools invite parents in regularly for Maths/Reading/Science cafes where you drop your kid off, then go get free tea/coffee and biscuits and a bit about what your kids are learning and why, then children turn up and you can do it together, but it's a bloody genius idea (not just because many parents will do anything for free coffee and younger siblings love doing 'school' - main reason I go!) - I've heard various parents saying "if they'd taught maths classes like that when I was in primary... well, I might have bothered going by the time I got to secondary!'

I didn't apply for this school - thought it was too far to get in anyway - so my tip is to gossip with as many people in playgrounds as you can until you find the TAs and teachers' neighbours etc, and find out which school is going to be the desirable one in the future that isn't at the moment.

Hopefully I'll continue to be impressed and I'm not easily impressed - currently furious about dn's 'Outstanding' school and their failure to cope with a bright autistic kid...

Yes, I guess it's hard to tell with DS as he is still so young. He was just assessed by Ed Psych and we are waiting to hear her opinion on suspected mild aspergers/ASC, so it's all a bit complicated. His abilities are largely hidden at school, because of his anxiety/laziness. For example, the nursery failed to let school know that DS was G&T for reading, so school did not know until I told the teacher at the first parent's evening (more specifically, I questioned her rational on having DS read on the same level as the others). DS did not let them know at all. After that the teacher did some reading with him one-on-one, so noticed how advanced he was, and that was when he was given his own books etc.

Var, I think it's much harder for them to cope with a child that's gifted in maths rather than literacy, so I don't know what the answer is there. Someone on here was talking about Further Maths GCSE, so I don't know if that's a thought.

I think that thread about further maths was me, if its the one last weekend.

I got some helpful info about various extension maths (UKMT) and how the gcses and a levels work.

I think what being more advanced in English looks like at the end of primary and the start of secondary is the whole class reads the book together and then there's a whole class discussion.

For the more able, the breaks are so frequent that they ruin the story and the analysis is quite superficial (blatantly obvious as ds2 put it to me recently).
ds1 is at secondary in year 8 and they've been doing Macbeth, except they are doing everything except actually read the play.

Ds1 could read it and understand it, with support. He'd like to read it because its a good story and its not very fulfilling to be told about something but not actually be allowed to experience it for yourself.
However presumably the teacher thinks the majority of the class - top set btw- couldn't.

So being advanced at reading isn't straightforward even 8 years after starting school.

DDs mixed y5/6 class have been reading Macbeth this year and having a wonderful time, but I assume they are trying to get something slightly different out of the experience than y8s.

English isn't set in Y7 and DD was given some Macbeth homework to write a spell.

Me: "Oh. So a bit like 'Double, double' then?"
DD (blank look)
Me: "Toil and trouble...?"
DD: "What?"
Me: "Eye of newt... three witches... ughh... didn't they...?"

They didn't.

5 points?

I think secondary is much better, than primary. You have specialist teachers, setting by subject (usually) and more students than primary (so more likely to have a few other exceptional children.

Its not perfect, but, its been much better than primary so far for my family,

I don't understand the point of "studying" classic literature if you don't actually study the work. That's really odd. Why not study something more accessible for the class but with potential for working at different levels?

As a general rule I think it is much easier to differentiate in language/ literature classes than in maths (the same essay topic can be approached with widely different expectations depending on the child's ability).

The issue in primary maths classes is that while primary teachers are hopefully capable at teaching arithmetic competently, they may lack the maths skills to teach more abstract topics. My DD only started enjoying (and being good at) maths in Y9 when it got much more abstract. Giving her harder arithmetic was never what she needed.

The English top set also did Dickens this year. Did they read a single Dickens book? No! I think they read the odd passage, as they did with Shakespeare, but that's it.

Why does this make sense? Are there any English teachers about who could explain what the reasoning is?