How to tone down a child's perfectionist nature

[Wowthishurtsalot]

Poor kid is incredibly bright but nothing less than perfection is good enough for her (nothing like her parents who are both happy just to get something finished) and she's becoming quite anxious verging on neurotic with it.

She's y5 and it's something we want to nip in the bud before it becomes a real MH issue with her. But from my experience with bright people neurosis and perfectionism seems to go hand in hand.

How have you dealt with it in your own child?

dd1 is also similar (and also year 5). Her school have set her a targets such as 'writing things out roughly and quickly in your rough book' - to make it clear to her that you shouldn't spend an hour making sure that the line you rule in the margin is exactly 100% perfect. (similar to mrscog idea that perfectionism is a failing)

We also repeat as a mantra - 'that's good thing, failing is the way we learn' and 'Failing is great, it shows that you're trying really hard new things' etc etc.

She is starting to take this on board, and the meltdowns do seem to have reduced a little.

Having 2 older kids who are messy, chaotic and all over the place and need to be told 18 times to do something, it's hard to know how to deal with a child that cries if I tell her to put her coat in the coat cupboard, and then does it every day from then on...

ha. spoke too soon. Massive meltdown on the way home about having to perform a song in the school carol concert that she's not practiced (because she has her solo instrument lesson during that lesson).

Telling her that it didn't matter in the scheme of things lead to massive crying jag, and she's now on the sofa sniveling into some hot choc...

(...hot choc coded as a result of having to cycle home in the rain, not because of the crying fit, btw...)

Var123, you seem to be asking what to praise when all there is is attainment and no effort. Well then I wonder why do you have to praise anything at all? Won't the lack of praise send him the right message ?
Also, is it only maths we are talking about? Is there another subject in which he isn't so overachieving or understimulated and requires him to put more effort?

I guess that was my original question: under the "praise effort, not attainment" parenting approach, what do you say when a child continually does very well without making an effort?

Obviously, I could completely ignore Ds2's maths, year after year, until he finds an opportunity to make an effort when the benefit could be worth the extra effort, but that doesn't feel right. It would have meant being tight lipped about maths since the age of 5, until he starts to struggle a bit, maybe in his teens sometime.

What message would it send him if I refused to say anything about the subject that interests him, but over the years I repeatedly praised his effort in art, a subject at which he is very weak and has no interest in?

I would say praising effort in a subject that does not interest him at all is exactly the point. The fact that he is working hard at something which does not come naturally or does not interest him but has to be done is worth a lot of praise after all that is most people's working life...
Re maths if the only sign that he isn't making an effort is that he gets 90 instead of 100 and makes mistakes he knows not to make then point that out and challenge him to care even if it's too easy...?

So ask him why he didn't get the other 10% (or 5% or even 1%)??

Or sniff and say nothing if he happens to get 100% but without any apparent effort?

Travel my DD1 was very much like this in Yr1 (now in Yr3). She wouldn't write anything in case it was wrong and when she did write something, if there was a mistake, she ended up scrubbing it all out and bursting into tears. Her teacher in the end got her to write every word in a different colour. Worked a treat.

I always ask did you do the best you could ? If the answer is yes then I say well done (regardless of grade).

Also frankly if he gets 100 it means he made an effort not to make silly mistakes Var123!

var123 I don't say much about my daughter's marks in maths (she has an average of 98% this term with very little effort). However, there is almost always something to praise if you take a wider view. In my DD's case, her maths test papers are always a pleasure to look at because they are neat and well-laid out, she explains her workings, and makes an effort with presentation. That is worthy of praise.

Within reasonable bounds I think the effects of parenting [strategies] are over-estimated. There is clearly some wriggle room but in principle there are significant genetic influences for both cognitive ability and behavioural traits. Both are obviously required for achievment.

Similarly for Dweck's process praise which is one of the cases where you often can find "stretch" in the context of very bright children i.e. it has been stretched to become a universal panacea. Tread carefully here because it is sometimes used against the interests of very bright children i.e. an ability group like a top set is effectively attainment praise which of course is absolutely-very-bad so schools must have mixed ability for everything.

My Y7 DD's personality encompasses a strong element of self-critical perfectionism, but she also seems happiest fighting a fierce battle with a new challenge where there are failures she can eventually overcome with stubborn determination. I don't believe we did anything much to make her that way.

I don't believe that many parents did anything much to make their child the other way i.e. the perfectionist who avoids new challenges lest they fail. But I do believe age and experience can help all by itself, especially once children stop taking adult praise at face value and can recognise an adult agenda at 100 paces.

With DD I now tend to opt for frank, objective feedback where plausible because it's a LOT safer than getting any variety of praise wrong i.e. if they produce a shiny outcome doing something they thought was easy then you'll look a bit stupid gushing over the effort or the outcome. It turns out that you can find research claiming objective feedback works just as well as process praise.

I agree with Piquaboo. Carol Dweck's praise-effort-not-achievement makes a lot of sense on paper. It makes sense in practice too, most of the time, but not always. I think DS2's maths example is one of those times.

Its like the Gina Ford stuff that I had pushed on me when I became a mother for the first time (2002). Its also a good idea in theory, but you can do some much harm in practice if you treat it as a panacea for all occasions and scenarios.

I think the problem with praise is that it means different things to different people. I'm more in the objective feedback camp - I would never say something was good if it wasn't, and I don't go out of my way to praise unless it's merited. I don't think children need to be told how great they are all the time, but they do need to know that when you say you are impressed, you are telling the truth.

I agree though that strategies have their limits, and some kids just are more anxious and perfectionist than others.

My DD1 has always been a massive perfectionist. She stresses and worries and sets herself very high standards in everything. It has impacted on her and I did worry about her and strategies to try and reduce this to some extent. But she is 27 now she is in a profession that she loves where these characteristics are a benefit. She does recognise she needs to watch her stress but I think it is just part of how she learns.
It is hard for her to switch off and any perceived fail is magnified though. I've just learnt to keep a stock of hot chocolate and straight talking available.

"they do need to know that when you say you are impressed, you are telling the truth."

One week in Y4 DD independently said this to both of us:

"You're only saying that because you're my [ mum | dad ]".

Trapped by an eight year-old. That was quite a game-changer and I've been conscious of the sincerity and defensibility of my opinions ever since.

"You're only saying that because you're my teacher".

Right now, Ds1 is saying this about the praise he is getting from his art teacher. She's not saying his work is fantastic, only average, but he thinks its well below the rest of the class.

However, it just shows, they only believe what sounds credible.

OP, what about letting your daughter know the adage, "Those who never made mistakes never made anything."

Though my dd has never been a perfectionist, I do try to impress on her that getting things wrong is of more value than getting things right because it offers an opportunity to learn. For that reason I will get her to look critically at the marks she lost, even if only a few. I would rather praise her for learning something new than for repeating what she already knows.

Var, I've been in the same situation with dd not been challenged at primary as with your ds2. What can you say when the few odd mistakes are basically due to boredom? I'm happy to report however, eventually things have now improved with dd in secondary. She is learning new things in school and enjoying maths lessons once again. I just feel annoyed that so much of primary was spent on the quest of mythical levels before I realised a GCSE was a tangible certificate. I would rather she had been taught at an appropriate level in primary, but while she too was making the odd mistake there was no chance of convincing the school of what level I thought she was.