How do we help ds see that it's OK for boys to be clever?

[overthehill]

Our ds is 7, and after reading threads on here & according to friends of ours who are experienced teachers, we've come to the conclusion that he probably is gifted. However, he messes around at school, often refuses point-blank to do work, lacks confidence in his abilities and says that he doesn't want to be seen as clever as he'll be teased & have no friends . He got 2 Level 3's in his SATs & a 'could do better' report, which we really found quite depressing, as it majored on his poor behaviour and lack of conformity rather than on his talents. He goes to a state primary with a lot of middle-class families but also some children from quite deprived backgrounds, and problems with naughty boys do seem to occur throughout the school. He is great with adults on a one-to-one basis and loved his teacher last year, but he finds it harder to relate to his peers and is quite immature socially in some ways. How do we help him & turn around his hatred of school into something positive??? (And we're not going to move him into the private sector, even if we could afford it).

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IME, secondary not primary, children who dress like the crowd, listen to the same music as the crowd and hang out with the crowd can do as well as they like academically. In fact, they're rahter appluded, as long as they maintain that air of "effortless superiority". But if they stand out socially, they get ostracized. We might not like it, but it's the way it is.

Actually, this is really only true for the middle class kids. It was much harder for the working class kids to feel it was acceptable to achieve academically.

I wonder too if you're making a bit of an excuse about the fear of not fitting in to justify why ds hasn't dazzled and astounded his teachers with his giftedness.

My ds is the same age as yours. I don't think he is gifted but he is very bright indeed. His school sounds a bit like yours - a good wodge of middle class with a sprinkling of problem kids throughout the school. But I have found absolutely no evidence of any negative peer pressure or the concept that it's not cool for boys to be clever -yet. At the moment in ds's peer group it is extremely cool to be the quickest to answer the question, get the most answers right or whatever. From teaching KS2 myself I really don't think the whole 'boys mustn't be swots' image thing kicks in until puberty.

And as for no TV or play station - well you are probably doing your ds a great deal of good and he will grow up with a much greater attention span and be far more creative than my ds, but it is an incredible social crutch for those kids who find it hard to fit in. I'd say at least half my ds's current conversation is based around watching the world cup (still- yawn!!) and I really hate to think how hard it would be for him to fit in with his mates if he hadn't had that opportunity. You are asking a lot...

It is nice for us to think that we can bring our children up in a nice world where they can be exactly as you or they wish and they will not get bullied but that world does not exist - and years in a classroom ave shown me that if you want children to avoid bullying and of course you can never guarantee this then you have to help them fit in.

I have taught very clever kids that have and have not been bullied and it does come down to things like dress sense, common interests, hair cuts- all very shallow and wouldn't it be lovely if these things didn't matter but to kids they do.

Does he have an interest that you could encourage that would make hime more appealing to the other kids. For example in my dd case ( don't know if she is gifted but has definite geeky tendencies!) I ahve tried to balance her obsessive love of science and numbers with dancing and more sporty activites as well as being rather shallow and dressing her well!

I think there is a pressure for boys not to be academic but I don't think it is the norm for primary schools - although I talk as a secondary teacher fully decorated with battle wounds who views primaries with rose tinted glasses so I may be wrong.

Overthehill, I wonder how much of his failure to concentrate at school is really to do with lack of confidence and fear of teasing, and how much to do with the fact that he simply isn't interested in what they're trying to teach him? The fear of teasing and lack of confidence may just be what he's worked out would be acceptable excuses.

FWIW I really don't think you should do anything to try to squash his individuality in order to help him fit in. If he himself has identified lack of tv/Playstation as part of the problem, then that's one thing, but I don't think you should do anything which sends out the message that there is something wrong with having all these quirky interests.

We were a pretty weird family and stood out in a lot of ways but neither of my brothers ever had any problems fitting in socially - other kids just accepted that they were different (brainy, full of arcane facts, rubbish at sports!). Both of them are successful in their careers now precisely because they are independent thinkers and can innovate when others need to conform.

I think you should just carry on encouraging his interests as much as possible and encourage him to use his interests to motivate him developing skills (eg reading stuff the church liturgy rather than those dire school reading books like my nephew brings home!) and provide social opportunities that he enjoys - and if he gets on better with girls and older children, fine, find things where he can hang out with girls and older children. As he gets older it will be more possible to reason with him about concentrating in school and he will see how certain goals in life can only be met if he buckles down and does things that don't interest him as much.

Anyway that's my view but I'm not a teacher and my dd is only a baby so it's pure opinion, not based on any knowledge whatsoever

I don't think you should quash their existing interests hence we took dd to the science edinburgh show , we have bookshelves full of books about science and she has her collection of Star TRek DVD's. But I have recognised that dd has the potential to be bullied so I have also encouraged her to do things that I know other kids of her age will like and want to do with her.

Did you go to Wonderama at the Edinburgh Science Festival Twinset? This year? Wasn't it fab?

DSs now think we are going to go to Edinburgh every Easter ...?!

actually dd1 sat happily through a finnish evening of songs in finnish and latin last year, she was 5.

but she is not at all gifted

just happy to sit and listen to pretty much anything

Are you SURE he is gifted...

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Yes we went to wonderama , and dd loved evry minute of it as did dp - he is the source of her geekiness. She adored Professor bunhead and climbing up the giant nose and has her DNA pictue displayed proudly on the wall.

She also wants to go next year anh money allowing we will take her as it was fantastic to see her so excited.

It will be even better when she is a bit older and can join in more things

I don't think it matters whether he is gifted, and lets face it we all think our children are unique and wonderful but we just use different words to describe that belief.

His feelings about doing well at school and not having friends are more of an issue, unless of course they are your worries that you are projecting on to him.

Sorry, I've not given up on this thread, just been out at work all day & then out (singing madrigals!) tonight - so this will be long, I'm afraid. There's some v interesting & helpful stuff that I've quickly scrolled through & many thanks to the various posters, but also a few misconceptions that I'd like to correct. Firstly, not sure where this stuff about dressing well is from: just been looking on Mini Boden sale website (good Mumsnet stuff!) to see what there is - he does wear 'good' clothes & we also get hand-downs from Gap, Mini Boden etc. so he's not in hand-knits, hippy gear or home-made clothes. And he has been growing his hair - altho' hairdresser got a bit over enthusiastic when she last cut it & when he looked in the mirror he went upstairs & cried (I felt awful! ). The TV thing is not too disastrous as he also has a very useful godmother round the corner who does have a telly, & is very keen on football & Dr Who, & has made sure he's up to date on both. When he was 3 he did ask if we could move house - to one with a television , but he's not complained so much lately. We do (obviously!) have a computer & he loves playing on that, & we also had a DVD drive fitted so they could watch films (but my dd is not interested & likes being different! - and has a good group of friends) I even searched the library for Star Wars-related stuff as all his class were into that last year, but he wasn't very impressed, nor does he like things like Lord of the Rings. He has one friend who comes to play & who invites him to his house, but he's mildly dyspraxic & a bit chaotic (but a popular lad from a lovely family - & he has an older sister), & they have been split up next year as they were too disruptive in class, so I'm a bit worried about that.

Re sports: he does quite a lot of bike riding - has a v cool bike with 24-inch wheels! - borrows his sister's scooter (not girly) & is getting better at swimming. He does enjoy 'boy things' such as woodwork & lighting fires & is in Beavers, & at one point kept asking his dad to take him fishing (which he flatly refused to do!) And the gardening thing came from a gardening club they started at school to which you had to have a personal invitation to join - & lots of disaffected boys seem to be in it! This then became the highlight of his week, & the natural next step was to join the local Kids' Allotment - which is where he's grown the infamous beans! As for cooking quiches, we're a foodie family, & he's been able to do scambled egg since he was about 3, so that doesn't seem odd to us.

And finally...phew!...I wasn't really sure about the gifted thing at all, & it was our teacher friends who came up with it. He does seem to fit descriptions I've read, however, tho' he's definitely not a genius - but I agree that it could well be a red herring. It's very hard to get him to express his feelings about what's so difficult about school - probably because boys find it harder to get in touch with their feelings (?), but his finding it hard to fit in is definitely a reality & not something we're projecting on to him. They do have a school 'counsellor' who has been seeing him regularly, but I'm not sure if he's been able to express himself better to her. Thankfully we seem to have got over the low point when I was phoned at work & asked to take him home for the afternoon as he'd completely lost it and needed time to calm down. He got into a rage again once at home, which was really scary, & I was so shaken up that I couldn't sleep that night .

does he have siblings oth?

A ten-year-old sister, NaO, & they do get on pretty well most of the time. In school holidays they often spend days making up a show, including doing programmes, scenery, costumes etc, & this a.m. before I went to work they were showing me a Powerpoint presentation they'd been doing for the latest production!

I did ask him something about one boy in his class who's supposedly a friend (what he liked doing) today & he said he didn't know - or seem to care much. I wonder sometimes if he maybe relies too much on his sister, but if they get on well & he also likes being with adults, maybe he doesn't really feel the need to bother with his peers as he might if he were an only one.

Might be worth a private school. Ours are at least a year ahead of all state schools, all get the top grade in SATs at 7 (every child in the class) in the private schools that bother to do them, atmosphere where it's cool to be clever, no one not as bright, no special needs children, everyone working to a similar level, all parents behind the work ethic, supporting school.