How can you tell you have at Gifted and Talented child?

[Blossom8]

My daughter who is nearly 2 years and 10 months knows:

her alphabets
count with a few errors from 1-80
can order numbers 1-50
knows the days of the week and months of the year
recognises and reads around 75 words
knows her colours
knows her shapes including a pentagon, octagon, hexagon etc
enjoys books
can do jigsaws for 2-6 year olds

this is my first child and she is a shy girl. My dilemma is whether to send her to private prep school instead of state primary school. I'm concerned that by going to a state school, the school will not provide for more able children.

My local state school recently got 68% in their SATS and rated good by Ofsted. However, after speaking to parents with children at this state school, they mentioned about recent high teacher turnover, bullying and the headteacher being ignorant in her approach to tackle these issues. When we visited this state school, the children appeared happy but I did not see much academic achievement.

I also read on here about bright kids being bored and unhappy at state school because they already know the stuff being taught and the teachers objective was getting the rest of the class up to Level 4 and not challenging the more able children.

Have any parents sent their kids to private prep having a bright kid and thought they have done the right thing and it was worth it?

I want the best for my child not just academically and I will have to make financial sacrifices if we decide to go down the private route.

Hi Blossom8,
DS (10) is in a very good state primary. Those sats results you mention are not great. There are a few really academic state primaries in London, but usually oversubscribed, in expensive catchments and of course you'd have to move. But they do exist. Your DD could be gifted or she could just have a very good retention of information and memory which can also explain what she is doing, but is different to what will come later in her academic life which has to do with processing, analysing and finding solutions. She will probably always be in top sets if she is willing to work hard, but a good state primary should cater for that. If you're very rich, go prep. But if you're not, save your money for secondary!

Are there other local state schools? So much depends on the individual school. My daughters' school also gets under 70% achieving level 4 in SATs but there is a culture of achieving all that you can. They definitely do not sit on their hands once a child is at level 4. My very able 9yo (who hit level 4 in year 4) has never complained of being bored and is consistently set goals that keep her interested and motivated.

So yes, I'm sure many parents will tell you that paying for a private prep is worth it. But there are also state schools that will do the job very well. By the sounds of it, your local one may not be one of them, but it's worth looking around.

I would suggest that you visit all the possible schools to get an idea of what they are like. I think it is impossible to generalise about schools and decisions can only be made on an individual school basis.

I agree with Lizcat. Don't make the mistake of thinking private schools are always better - it depends on the school. If you can't stand the only state school your child has any chance of getting into, then look around for an alternative option you have to pay for, but never assume gifted children can only thrive in the private sector. And definitely don't assume that any old private school is OK - you have to be just as picky, there, if you can afford to be (and if you can't, then you might be wasting your money).

unfortunately my local state primary is one of the better ones in my area. If I were to send my child to a better performing state school, I would have to move to a different area which will just be as costly as paying for private school.

The private prep we are looking into has been inspected recently and has been judged as outstanding in terms of academic achievement, pastoral care etc but the fees from 4+ is around £750 a month and goes up thereafter.

Many people believe I should pay for secondary private school but my concern is what if my child does not pass the entrance exams to get in if she went to an average primary school that does not push their pupils? I presume the competition would be more fierce at 11 then at 4 for entry into a private school?

I also read that some parents believe that paying for private primary is better as it sets the foundation and love of learning from a young age.

How does she know all that?

I presume you taught her? Or does she obsessively demand the info?

Ds spent his reception year in a state school, I moved him to into a private school at the start of year 1. I wish I'd have put him straight there to be honest. He's very, very bright and found reception hard as he already knew a great deal (alphabet, numbers, shapes etc at 12 months). His behaviour went downhill as he was bored, which had an impact on his health. I'd still give the state sector a try first though, you may be lucky and find a school which can meet her needs.

yes I did teach her but she enjoyed it and seemed to absorb things quickly, sometimes amazing myself with her memory. I would not force her to do something if she did not want to. But at the same time I want to encourage her. Don't get me wrong, she is well loved and gets alot of attention and fun and play time but personally I think some help before she goes to school is a good thing but I was surprised how well she took it so we continued challenging her.

LadySyblDeChocolate - is your child happier at private prep?

Depends on the school
Imo private schools are good for the average child - they will get higher grades - but a bright child will do well anywhere so long as learning and achieving are valued at home and preferably also at school
A lot of private schools are great for extra curricular stuff - so a sporty child would thrive for example
Mine go to a nice caring state primmary with similar sats (which reflect intake). They are doing fine and achieving levels to be expected considering parental level of education, jobs etc etc

He was academically, they had zero pastoral care though and liked children to be seen but not heard. Ds is of the questioning sort. When a new head took over we were one of the first families to be pushed out as we didn't fit his idea of the sort of families he wanted at the school (I'm a single mother). I didn't push him, he was given a bus with letters, numbers and shapes buttons on them (push the button and it says the letter), 2 weeks later he knew them all.

I disagree that a bright child will do well anywhere. The rates of depression/mental illness are higher in bright children and it's not cool to be bright, even now. Ds is at a selective secondary so he's surrounded by boys who are 'like him'. I feel sorry for the teachers though.

I could read well before 2 1/2. I enjoyed being taught and enjoyed reading. I was a shy child, hated preschol and was bored in reception.

However, i really came out of myself in primary, and i went to an average state primary. my confidence and people skills increased. i was towards the top end of the class, but wasn't totally at the top, as i have a May birthday, so there were lots of children older than me who naturally did better than me.

I did well in GCSE's and struggled a LOT in A-levels (first and only time i ever had to work to get the grades,a nd couldnt be bothered) then studied law in university where i found studying easy again.

I think the most important thing when children are little is to keep learnign fun, and remember that often school is just as much about social learning as it is about academia.

The anxiety thing is something to keep an eye on, certainly - again, imo, it is sometimes better not to pressurise too much too early. Depends on the child and personality of course
For primary, I'd really worry much more about the caring side of the school, within reason of course! As I said, my kids go to a school where many children would not get particularly high sats, based on background, but my kids do well there and achieve at their expected level. There are other local schools I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, despite higher sats, as I do not agree with their ethos.
Check out the local state and private but look at it holistically would be my advice
I also wouldn't get too excited yet about g + t, based on what you've said so far. If it's something she spends a lot of time on, she probably would do ok at it if reasonably bright

Hi Blossom8. I wouldn't get too excited over G&T either because in my opinion (and also dd's) it doesn't mean anything! Dd had been on it all through primary (although neither she nor i knew that until end of year 6) and all it did for her was give her extra maths homework. That was it. G&T usually means that the child is working above their peers or something like that. And i think the CAT tests are something to do with it too. My dd's sats were high too and was above what was expected (level 3 in year 2, 4 in year 3, and 5a in years 4, 5 and 6.) School did not do much with dd and they thought that they were pushing her (they were not) but she always ended up helping other children. Was recommended dd tries private school on a bursary (i am single parent on low income) but private school aghast at mention of primary school name - its not waterloo road or anything like that - so didn't bother them again. Dd now 12 in year 8 and doing really well and exceeding her targets which are apparently high. Getting level 7 and 8 in all subjects except pe and dance. AND all the top sets in school are called Gifted and Talented and the children are not officially registered. I do still wonder whether dd getting in to a private school would have been better but as she is doing well i am happy at the moment. She is very quiet so whether she would have fit in is a different matter. Good luck with everything.

My ds has been tested as being a genius and my dd as highly gifted. Neither could do almost any of the things you listed at that age. I started them both in state school and finally had to move my ds this year and my dd next year to private school so that they could get enough stimulation to keep them occupied. I get large amounts of financial aid to help me with this, but it still means enormous sacrifices both now and in the future. Now that my ds is in a fantastic school and I see what his life (and mine) can be like with real educational stimulation, I have no regrets about making the move and all the sacrifices.

Well done SofiaAmes with your children. Did you have your children properly tested or is it just what teachers have said? I was always told that my daughter was highly gifted and all the other things teachers say but not officially tested by anyone. The nearest thing was in year 2 of primary, dd's school books were given to the Ofsted people to look at and then they were "borrowed" but i am not sure where they went. Hope your children continue to do well.

I am in the USA so process is different than in uk. It actually differs from one school district to another here. I had ds tested privately with a proper IQ test at age 8 as we were having lots of trouble with the school. They kept telling me that he was going to have to repeat his grade....in retrospect I think they mis-took the blank look (because he already knew everything they were teaching him) as a look of lack of understanding. He was finally tested by the school themselves (they don't use an IQ test because they are considered culturally biased...it's some sort of written test which dd said was "just a bunch of stupid patterns that you had to put in order")for G&T at age 10. Dd was tested by the school at age 7 as she is much more skilled at pretending she's paying attention even though she is bored s**tless. I really think that it depends very much on the child's personality as to whether a G&T child can get a good education in a state (or normal private) school setting. My ds is still wandering around in a dream and putting his trousers on backwards (while figuring out how to turn neutrinos into time machine) at age 11. In addition, he has chronic illnesses that mean extended absences from school. He needed a small eccentric school and that's exactly what I found for him. Dd just couldn't care less about learning, so if she is in a classroom where the teacher is giving extra attention to the slow kids, dd will do the minimum required, charm the teacher into thinking she's amazing and spend her day doing what she really wants to do. I am exploring very different school opportunities for her than for ds. Also, please don't think that just because it's private, it will be a good education for your child.

I wasn't aware that there was any test for identifying a genius.

Yes, there are several IQ tests. (The one my son was given was the Wechsler in conjunction with several other tests to get an overall picture of his learning skills.) If you have above a certain IQ then you are considered a genius. Of course your need to take it all with a grain of salt and bear in mind that being a genius in and of itself doesn't guarantee success at anything necessarily. I went to University with a lot of geniuses. Although I am not a genius, I am smart and very very organized so was able to compete and do well not solely based on my IQ.

My child was also tested with Weschler testing, achievement testing etc, and scored close to the maximum scores possible but I don't think genius is common terminology for this. Mind you I wouldn't say that I have ever met a genius, neither as an undergraduate at Cambridge, nor as a PhD student there, nor as a professor of science at Harvard, so I guess I just don't use the term genius lightly.

Really? I went to MIT and met a lot of geniuses there. And there are several in my family (not including ds). I don't think I use the term lightly in any way. You seem to have some sort of issue with the concept. Do you feel that you are less worthy if you aren't a genius? I certainly don't think genius makes one more valuable to society than anyone else, but it sure is more mentally stimulating talking to ds than most kids his age. But I won't be letting him him cross the street by himself for many years to come!

By your definitions I think I and members of my family, as well as colleagues (some of whom are Nobel prize, Fields Medal etc winners), would be called geniuses, but indeed it is not a word I or they use. Actually my PhD advisor hates it when the media calls him a genius; he is very uncomfortable with the terminology. But each to their own. If you are comfortable calling your son a genius, great. Unlike many British people I have no problem with saying gifted, profoundly gifted etc but saying genius just doesn't feel comfortable for me.

ibizagirl: well done on your daughter. I'm surprised the private school turned down applicants for bursaries from not so good primary schools? Surely it should be based on academic ability for scholarships and/or bursaries and not the primary school?

After reading numerous threads I do worry about state primaries not challenging more able pupils. It is understandable the teachers needs to help 30+ children achieve at least the average but it concerns me that bright children will not be pushed as they are already in the top sets and are asked to help their peers instead. Just worried a more able child will get bored and not stimulated hence my interest in a private primary.

I agree with you Thalitsa that genius not a term that is normally used by the people I know who are, but personally I find the term gifted more problematic because it implicitly contains a comparison to others (i.e. those who are not bestowed with a gift). But all of that is really just semantics....the more important issue is that our public schools in both the USA and the UK are failing kids who are bright but may learn in a non-standard way and personally I feel that this is a crisis as it is filtering out a whole group of kids who are our future scientists and inventors. If their parents are not able logistically or financially to move these children to non-conventional educational setting (unfortunately, private for the most part) they are getting lost and buried in the system.