just out of curiousity......re piano grades

[paisleyII]

i wondered how well my dd was doing at piano as i have nothing really to compare her to as her teacher says she is gifted and one of her three prize students, she turned 9 last week. she has been playing piano for two years and is just about to take grade 4 & grade 1 violin which she has been playing for 6 months. she knows a girl at school who has already taken grade 4 although she started to learn 2 years younger (at 5). just curious is all.... :) we are quite laid back about her playing in as much she does it because she likes it and tbh doesn't practice much, lucky if i can get her to do ten minutes a day

I would say you DD is doing pretty good, covering four grades in two years is good, but on the other hand is also perfectly on track.
From about grade four she will slow down, etude's, studies and difficulty of compositions and introduction to a more virtuous composers will take her more time to master properly with adequate finger/hand technicality.
Rule of thumb is one exam per year and as she progresses it could be one exam in two years, as for practicing ten minutes a day that will have to change, from about now or when she passes her 4th grade, she will be introduced to lot more Bach, early Sonata's, complex scales and arpeggios which will require not only raw talent, but indeed dedication and maturity on her part to execute properly, she will have to put in the time ,lot more of it, but it will be rewarding and very enjoyable to listen to her, good luck.

thanks strict, you are right, i and she knows she will have to put more than ten minutes in after grade 4, grade 4 has been harder than the first three exams and will be alot harder after that. she loves to play but doesn't enjoy practice time, i always feel a bit guilty getting on her case and making her practice/be serious instead of playing things she likes but i know it is what she has to do.

I think that's unusually fast progress: often it takes a long while for students to get the hang of the basics on piano.

How is she with her scales and sight reading?
My ds2 is doing grade 4 this time too. What pieces is she doing?

Sounds great/excellent progress .

thanks ladies, that's nice to know, i thought she was doing well but didn't know how well. roisin she is doing allegro in F, waltz & blues. scale wise she is doing well, she doesn't seem to mind the scales, her problem is that she plays things too fast. sight reading she has been practising pieces from previous exams, i think grade II but couldn't swear by it, her teacher wasn't very clear as to what level they would be asked to sight read. she has always got a couple of points under a merit, she always falls back on playing things too fast, the examiner mentions this in pretty much every comment :) not ideal but it is up to her really, nothing i can do about it, i don't like to get involved/busy (push her, go on at her)

Has she done earlier grades? Or is she going straight into grade 4?

It's worth getting hold of a copy of specimen sight reading tests or the Harris sight reading book, to get an idea of what level the tests are at. I think they have to do keys up to 3 sharps or flats (major and minor) for grade 4, a whole variety of time signatures and some simple chords. But only short (c.8 bar) pieces.

ds2 is doing Scherzo (A2) Alone at Sunset (B1) and Blues (C3). I love the C-list piece that your dd is playing too - he plays it so expressively. He's working hard as he's keen to get a distinction again this time.

roisin - she took grades, I, II & III. you must play yourself from what you right/your knowledge. your ds sounds as if he is very dedicated, you are lucky. dd seems to be a natural but it is very frustrating as she does little to have got where she is now, a chancer but i don't like to push as i don't want her to go off it and give it up. dh played the violin up to grade 7, getting mostly distinctions although not for the last few exams but his mother (who was a piano teacher and also plays cello) was very strict and took the pleasure out of it, i don't want that to happen to her. i would never tell her this but i always feel a little disappointed when she just misses a merit as it is ALWAYS because she plays too fast, i know she could/should have got a merit pass, i don't expect distinctions. most of all i want her to enjoy it and to possibly follow in her fathers footsteps (making it into a career), her grandparents play in orchestra's, she can see the joy in it, that is why she wanted to take up the violin. best of luck for your ds's exam :)

Sounds like my DD1 who is 7 and just started the piano and is covering ground very fast. The teacher also says she has a gift for the piano but she does get very impatient when things don't come easily, sadly it is a balance between getting strict about it and making her practise and just letting her be. I think I swing between both.

Having said all that, I think your daughter has made amazing progress and you should be very proud of her! Even if she gives up or doesn't do any more grades, she will be able to play all her life now and that is a great gift to give to a child!

She's doing pretty well isn't she

Make sure the teacher is covering the ground re theory though too, otherwise that'll hold her back- I know with trinity guildhall you don't "have" to have grad 5 theory to do grade 6 practical like you do with associated board, but if you don't have it under your belt the lack of knowledge will come back and bite you on the bum later!

My youngest has hit this wall and is working harder now on theory.

I got to Grade 4 by 9 years old. Skipped grade one, Merits etc. Theory lessons too.

I gave it up and God what a relief that was, though my Father wasn't happy.

thanks ladies. itsonly - i am very proud as indeed you are too. my dd also gets really impatient when something is hard. the other day she burst into tears because of a tricky bit in a violin piece. she is very lucky that dh plays both so she has him to help her, lord knows if it was down to me she would be in trouble as i don't play anything, sadly. there is a girl in dd's class who is very good (the one i mentioned earlier who has already taken grade 4 although i don't know what her pass was, i guess it wasn't really high otherwise she would have told everyone by now), anyway, she doesn't seem to enjoy playing, moans about it alot (dd tells me) but she spouts on constantly about how her playing will (quote) get her a scholarship...obviously come directly from the mouths of her parents. my dd doesn't even know what a scholarship is! i want to keep it that way, i don't want her to feel there is pressure on her to do it for any reason other than pleasure. competition is rife where we live, i wouldn't imagine she would be able to get a scholarship. her teacher tells me of mothers who are only interested in the scholarship connection of their childs playing and are as a result seriously pushy, her teacher gave me the impression that a fair few of her pupils don't enjoy it at all. at least dd enjoys it apart from practice time :)

Does she mind doing all those exams? I skipped most of the early ones... it gets a bit boring if you play more than one instrument to take every exam going.

rabbit - oddly enough, she doesn't. her teacher held back doing grade 4 after 3 because her hands weren't big enough so she had some time out. i know some teachers go immediately from one grade to the next. actually, dh doesn't particularly want her doing them at all but dd has told him she likes doing them, she is always excited rather than nervous before each one which i think a little odd, she just doesn't like doing the actual preparation much.

Your daughter is clearly making good progress, but as a teacher I would be a little hesitant over the rate at which she is taking exams. I would expect a student progressing that quickly through the early grades to easily be gaining distinctions (or high merit on a bad day). There is absolutely nothing wrong with passes in exams, these in themselves are a great achievement, but there is plenty of time to reach the higher grades and it would be better to spend more time really instilling the basics to a good level rather than rushing on.

A child who achieves grade 8 at age 10 for example, is no more likely to go on and do great things than another child who achieves the same grade at 14/15 or older. I currently have a student who has just turned 9, who took grade 4 a couple of terms ago and gained distinction. I have held off rushing to grade 5 as I want to ensure that he is really grounded, over and above less able children, before moving on. We've covered lots of repertoire and have explored lots of technical issues including working with small hands (he has particularly small hands even for his age).

KS2L6 You sound like a lovely teacher- having a looong experience as a parent of kids who are reasonably able I agree rushing from exam to exam doesn't really result in better players at age 18.

We have a piano teacher (she fine really ) who likes them to do every grade (yawn!) and I think that's because she teaches in a school were exams/certificates are highly valued by "the system" and the kids. We have an older very experience and totally brilliant recorder teacher who is really very "meh" as the teen would say about exams.They almost have to beg to do them! However DS (just 16) now wants some "proof" of his standard so wants to do 7 and then 8 this year, fitted around s GCSEs (mad child!). His choice so he's actually working!

ks, i was curious as to 'how well' dd was doing compared to others her age purely on the back of her teacher often making comments about how good she was, her ability to do something straight away that her other students ie might take months to do. i agree with what you have said, that makes sense to me with regard to taking exams. tbrh, i am not that bothered about exams. my dh never took any piano exams, is self taught and has as a result toured the world as a successful musician playing with a successful band, always been impressed with both his and dd's musical abilities, probably because i don't have any myself :( but i don't as a result push dd as some do, living their own failed dreams through her. i think she too has taken exams too fast and would have gained higher scores had she of waited, i don't it matters really, the exams or the scores although there is a part of me, as i have said, that was gutted when she got a lower score because she plays too fast, the greedy pushy side in me creeps up, but i don't want to get caught up in the competative showy side of it, i hear this all very well from the other mothers when i collect dd from her weekly piano lesson. i heard one mother complaining to the teacher that her dd (looked about 4) wasn't having an hour long lesson, only 1/2 hour, unlike the little girls cousin who was 6, made me feel a bit sick actually. after grade 4 i can't imagine for a minute that dd would take 5 for ages, that suits me and would certainly suit her

I agree with Theas18 about theory. ds1 does singing too, but doesn't play an orchestral instrument - so there are whole bits of theory that he's not exposed to.

He's completed theory workbooks at home over the past year (marked by me and asking me any questions). He's having a few theory/composition lessons now and will take his grade 5 theory on 1 March. I'm really pleased he's got this out of the way with little fuss, as it was a stumbling block for me when I learned.

Musical talent is difficult to judge. I'd say she is achieving well above average but would not say gifted. To me, gifted is the child who at age eight is grade 8. But if your daughter's achievements were put on a bell curve she'd probably be in the top 20%. That's a crude analogy but you get what I mean.

I don't think the violin achievement is very good though considering she is grade 4 piano. Normally with this level it would be expected to get to at least grade 2 on a second instrument.

I'd echo the ones who are saying don't go through the exams too quickly.
I did my grade 2 violin in about 4 terms (age 9) having started in a group of 4 and pulled away from them after about 2 terms, and my grade 3 a year later. (no other instruments)

Looking back I'd have been much happier and more inclined to continue if I'd been slowed down and got good marks rather than passes. I wouldn't regard myself as particularly good musically, although when I was doing it I would have been regarded as your dd, as a "prize" pupil. Dh is very musical (has perfect pitch etc.) and he went slower through his exams, getting merits and distinctions and now still plays and enjoys it.

Sometimes 'giftedness' in music shows itself by big achievements at a young age, but I'd still contest what the point is of a child of 8/9/10 or even 11 achieveing grade 8. There is so much more they could be learning if extension is needed. I'm a big fan of improvisation and composition projects alongside the 'formal' learning, and indeed, this helps develop their overall musical perception and may well mean a child of a slightly older age achieving grade 8 but with a much broader musicianship on which to base further studies.

Sometimes 'giftedness' in music doesn't show itself til much later. I was at conservatoire with a pianist who went on to have a good performing career who didn't actually start the piano until 16, and had only sung in local theatre companies before this age, who made spectacular progress, won piano prizes at college and couldn't be held back! However, this is very unusual!

Grade 4 after two years at that age is bloody good (well done her!) but not astounding, so "gifted" might not be the right description exactly. Reading up the thread, I'm just echoing what others have said.

I'd be very careful not to let her know that she's a prize pupil- and if she's already been told that, err on the side of strictness rather than praise for practise, effort etc.

Yes, grades don't mean a terrible lot at the end of the day, apart from that you've crammed in some scales and have a fairly balanced repetoire- not hard when it's about ten pieces altogether. You can fly through to the top grades having very little musical knowledge and theory. I like the ABRSM grades but you don't really have to bridge the gap between them, so it's not great for the student.

i get it, alot of what has said makes sense, i can see she isn't 'gifted' but has taken to it quite quickly/naturally and with little effort (which isn't good, i can see that). what's important for me is that she enjoys it rather than gets pushed/i don't want it all so serious for fear it may take the pleasure away from her and then she throws in the towel although she can see what exciting different careers can be had from being able to play a musical instrument which is very helpful. i see alot of miserable looking children which at a guess, some of which, have been pressured into playing an instrument for varying reasons down to the parents. she doesn't think she is 'special', this is something her teacher has said to me out of her earshot, i would never tell her anything like that, i know that she is no child genius or anything like that, just surprised at how quickly she has taken to it with little practice. as for the violin, i never thought she was gifted at that, but it is impressive to a musicle clueless such as myself that she literally picked the darn thing up and played it, whole songs through, from the first lesson, i guess i am easily impressed although i have always had a soft spot for the violin so any kind of squeak is music to my ears :) i think she will definately take it slower after grade 4 although i must add any pass makes me happy and proud of her, yes it would be nice if she got higher and i do get a bit disappointed when she fails to get a merit due to too many comments about her needing to slow down, but the thrill of the exam taking experience is great enough for her, high passes are a bonus, that is the way i see it anyhoo

She sounds very quick and clever- very useful in lots of other areas, not just music, although music is the perfect vehicle with which to develop these sorts of skills further. I'm sure it's more than just being naturally quick, too, she sounds musically inclined etc. Let her enjoy it, you both seem very eager and involved :)