Would you consider Level 5 at end of Year 5 to be G and T?

[clutteredup]

I know a lot of schools teach to a high level as they are going for 11+ or independent school entrance exams, but some schools don't seem to provide 'extra' or extension beyond the main teaching within the year group.
If your DC is in a mainstream middle of the road school would you expect G and T status / provision with Level 5s at end of Year 5?

As for schools not teaching beyond a certain level I had a thought - at KS1 the highest SAT paper level is 3 and KS2 is 5. If a child achieves a 3 at KS1 school needs to ensure Level 5 at KS2 for Contextual Value Added - actually if its a 2 level increase that's just what's expected - no extra CVA. If child gets 2a then a Level 5 its extra CVA. There is no benefit to a school assessing a child in Year 2 as Level4 as then the CVA will be 'bad' as they can only make one level progress on paper. I know few children are working at this level but it is not in the school's interest to encourage it and in Maths if you don't teach it won't happen.
English is different as you can't ignore a child who writes at a high level, they just get on with it, if they are avid readers the extend their own writing, grammar etc. As you said myface if they were given extended work to do they could be assessed accordingly but it appears that this isn't always the case. You are right ragged it does reflect badly on schools.
So back again to 'Joe' - should we give him harder work or leave him to coast?
Some popular football boys may be really clever but in Joe's school he's one of only a very few, so he doesn't want to stand out, and he is bad at football. He's my illustration not necessarily typical, characteristics given only to promote discussion.

Well I think study habits and putting in effort is part of the same thing. Anyway, in my own experience seeing children coasting is painful.

Whilst they can and do extend themselves in english, some might feel isolated as they tend to not get recognition for doing extra work, especially if it does not come from the school....some children are fine with this but some feel demotivated by it....it depends on the child.

My son end of year 5 has just had 5c in Maths, 5c in English and 5c in Science, he is in the middle set for Math & English in september for y6, to me he isnt gifted & talented.

Middle set, really? Wow

Middle set?

My Y5 DS was assessed as 5b maths in February. (and is comfortably top of the top set)
I think he is talented at maths, and that he has coasted the whole time at school, however school insist that they are differentiating adequately.
I do sypathise with the teacher (a bit) as at this stage, it is hard to spot the difference between someone who has been drilled through Kumon and worksheets, and someone who has an innate feel for numbers. As long as the Kumon or work at home is one step ahead of the class room teaching, the child will seem to "pick up new concepts easily" ...
So the short answer to the OP is yes, if they are able to do stuff they've not been taught yet, then yes, I'd say mathematically talented. And unless they are at milky bar kids DS school then probably in the top 10% so should be listed as G&T. FWIW, which is nowt i my experience.

NO

BTW my DS doesn't do Kumon or worksheets, but he just thinks in percentages and probabilities. Not saying he's a human calculator, but he just has a feel for numbers and comparisons.

choccyp1g I recognise this! In Yr1 the teacher solemnly told me DS could do number bonds up to 20 ("well done") when each morning before school he made me play a card game (Pokemon? Yugi-Oh?) with points in the thousands, taxing my mental maths... Trouble is now he is getting older he finds it tricky to show working out, he says he just knows whether it is right or not.

Back to topic, in my son's class the most able children come from a mixture of backgrounds but do all seem to have motivated parents [obvs not that other parents not motivated etc etc]. So clutteredup I am interested in what research says about what helps children to achieve.

The children in his class, unlike Joe, don't seem to have any problem with achievement. And despite his school having a general ethos against competitiveness, they have a very well-developed sense of where each ones ranks in the class

Our son was offered a place in the Maths top set, he is extremely competitive and works very hard in school, maths is natural to him, English isn't. His level 5 in English was big surprise.

We know that from working hard and being top in the middle set, he will move into the top set and be middle, we have spoken in death with his maths teacher and with him, and will see how the first term goes. He doesn't have a lot of confidence in himself and we don't feel at this age he needs pushing any further, he is doing excellently where he is. The top set in maths is full of some incredibly bright children, of which, out of the boys, none are sporty, and we know that was a key in his reasoning.

His sport nerd mates (our sons passion is sport, he lives for it) are mainly in the lower maths set, and we are aware that he felt uncomfortable with finding maths fun, we suspect (we may wrong) after a term in the middle set he may well want to go into the top set come Christmas, as they wont be in class to influence any decisions. We just had to find a balance for him, for now we have.

I stumbled on this thread Out of total curiosity, searching for sat result posts.

We havnt spoken in death, we have in depth!!!!

So back again to 'Joe' - should we give him harder work or leave him to coast?

FWIW, DS could kind of be your "Joe".

Doesn't it depend how you would try to incentivise him not to coast? Doing it in a way that fulfills his expectations about looking like a Geek are not going to work. Pressurising him is risky. Inspiring him on the other hand.... finding other lads like him for him to mix with but willing to compete a bit to see who's brainiest?

It's Gareth Malone's Ext. School for Boys all over again, in'it?!

Nah dd1 hit level 4 by end of year 2 start of year 3 she also has an iq of over 136! You know what I don't care

Why tell us then?

Because I know she's G&T and op asked for opinions.
Ok I do care, I'm very proud of her tbh but think all kids have strengths. DD1 is in math, English and art

Do schools ever still do IQ? I thought it was discredited as a useful measure now.

Jeez, now I know what people mean about the g&t boards...

wasnt done by school

Oh, did you take her somewhere to get it done?

yes but not for the reason of an iq test. She has Autism and a number of other issues, and they wanted to assess her difficulties and strengths and work out how we can help. She has auditory processing issues and sensory issues too. Nice to know shes clever, but Im not too worried as along as shes happy. She's a brillant artist, and we couldnt be prouder

Pressurising him is risky. Inspiring him on the other hand.... finding other lads like him for him to mix with but willing to compete a bit to see who's brainiest?
Yes I like the difference.
Someone suggested that a child such as this might be lazy but perhaps uninspired might be more likely - and lacking in others who share his interest. A bit like being a mad keen footballer in a school full of computer geeks - its quite hard to play football on your own.
Not a likely scenario but pleased with my analogy < not even hit the wine yet this evening >

milky is your DC in a private school - many schools don't have such clear 'sets' just some kids get a different page in the book or a different worksheet.

I agree with ragged, ds recently had a new boy join his class who is super brainy(according to him)and with whom he is in awe, it has inspired him to strengthen his weak subjects. He now learns in an almost competitive manner, with a no nonsense attitude. And it has surprised me, before he was lazy and needed to be encouraged to do his homework. Now he looks forward to homework and wants to learn more, he also looks much more happy than before.

Cluttered Here

Thanks myface her's one for you too
I think competition is natural and after all it was why they introduced girls into independent boys' 6th forms as it increased the results of the boys as any who were coasting were incentivised to puul their fingers out when faced with equally or more intelligent girls.
IME boys are more likely to need this than girls, as IME girls find their own ways of inspiring themselves - although I do accept that isn't exclusive my DD2 exhibits typical 'boyish' features so by definition they aren't 'boyish'.
It's easy to coast if you think you're the best , and don't want to stand out.
Is this an argument for selection? Evidence has shown that non selection improves results of those who would otherwise achieve less but what about 'Joe' ? [another thread methinks I think this is too emotive an issue and would get off the point too much]
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'I've seen NVR tests and they require an awful lot of experience to have been had by the child in question in order quickly to understand all the pictures and interpret them -'

No that just isn't true, my DC have all 'got' them straight away without any explanation from me and they are not considered to be anything special academically

L5-L6 should be the standard expectation for the average kid in year 5. S/he is certainly capable of it!

The current target of 4b in Y6 is pathetic and a demonstration of why mixed ability 30 is a bad idea. The only way to make MA seem like it's working is to set targets artificially low so most participants - teachers and pupils - feel like they're getting somewhere.

Mixed ability works to demonstrate that intelligent children, given the right environment, can perform on par with what the average child is capable of doing.

Could be....may not be!
Depends on the circumstances: are they being taught it or learning it for themselves. If G and T is a set % of their cohort then it depends on their cohort. If they are all being taught to this level then they could be average. I certainly agree with Dad at Large that children could do more than what is expected of them (special needs aside- but I would hope they all have their own individual targets).