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Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

If you think your child may be gifted, please read this....

48 replies

squeezedatbothends · 02/07/2011 18:40

There is a raft of research at the moment about the problems with labelling children as 'bright', 'gifted' etc....the best is from Carol Dweck at Stanford University in the States. She writes about how our brains are actually 'plastic' i.e. hugely flexible and as such (in theory) any child can be gifted, but how our reactions to this and our language can create a fragile and brittle confidence that leads to real problems later in life. I read it and almost wept - my 18 year old son is absolutely 'fixed' as she would say, and suffers from acute depression in spite of his Oxford offer and constant accolades that he is 'gifted' - at the first sign of trouble or challenge, he crumbles. We Mums need to get up to date with recent developments in neurology (another great book is 'What is the Point of School?' by Guy Claxton) and start to challenge the way our schools are assessing and limiting our children. We also need to think of how we use praise and how we encourage our children to think of the effort they're putting in rather than the results they're getting out. Let me know what you think....

OP posts:
chillistars · 05/07/2011 21:47

Thanks rabbitstew. I don't know if the label (if applied) would make any difference to the provision in school, that is really what I'd like to know.

chillistars · 05/07/2011 21:49

The praise the effort idea is why I give £5/a new book to my two for a good school report - if they get A/excellent/always tries their best on their school report for each subject then they get £5/a new book regardless of what their achievement is.

cory · 06/07/2011 17:30

Imo the effort/attitude marks can be very subjective. Dd gets A for attitude in PE, a subject in which she has not taken part for 3 years, because the teacher is a pleasant soul who feels sorry for a disabled pupil. She never gets one in RS where she does actually put in some work. As far as I can make out, the RS teacher never gives out A for attitude, as he doesn't think anyone appreciates his subject as much as it deserves: he is however forced to give out some As for achievement as that is not debatable to the same extent.

squeezedatbothends · 07/07/2011 10:28

It's been lovely to read all these comments - maybe we should re-name this thread 'the sensible Mum thread'! You're all absolutely right that much of the crux of this lies at home, but also as parents to be encouraging our schools to measure beyond the grade. I observe a lot of teachers teaching and children learning in my job and when I ask many children what they have learned or achieved, it's so disheartening to hear comments like 'I'm a 5a' or 'I'm a grade C' as if that defines what a child is. Certainly from an Ofsted point of view, progress and learning are much more complex than that and if both parents and teachers can start to reframe language so that children start saying 'I'm doing well with coming up with creative ideas, but I need to work on my editing skills...' rather than 'I'm a 4' - we'll be starting to get somewhere. Thanks for all your contributions on this.

OP posts:
KATTT · 07/07/2011 12:22

squeezedatbothends

A friend of mine, who used to be a teacher, said that she used to celebrate effort and achievement. So if a child got three spellings right last week and five out of ten this week it was that child's work that would be held up as an example and everyone would clap that child. It meant that it wasn't always the 'top achievers' who got recognition. She said something really interesting 'children don't go out of their way to do badly, generally they love to please'

KATTT · 07/07/2011 12:25

Although I should add, to get back the real world, that this conversation came about because my child's maths teacher had held her work up like this Angry

"This is really great work (holding some kid's maths up in one hand) this on the other hand (holding up my child's work!) isn't."

EyeOfNewtToeOfFrog · 08/07/2011 12:34

KATTT - OMG, unbelievable about the maths work!!! Shock Angry Sad

I received the same in PE ("girls, here you have a good and a bad example of a press-up!") but that was by an ancient crone in the dark ages (early 1980's).

I really thought teachers were a bit more up to date with social skills in this day & age!

I hope you complained. Loudly.

KATTT · 08/07/2011 15:18

EyeOfNewtToeOfFrog

I would complain, I was livid, but it was last week and this teacher is leaving at the end of term so I think it would be pointless.

Cortina · 05/09/2011 02:31

Can't sleep & spotted your post squeezedatbothends. I've written a lot here about this subject and am familiar with Guy Claxton (how wonderful to find someone else who's read the excellent 'What's The Point of School') and Carol Dweck's research. I am unusual in that I believe a minor intellect can become a major genius and that 'cells that glow together grow together' - in other words it is possible to become cognitively smarter with practice. As you say there have been developments in cognitive science too which seem to have passed most people by. We can get incrementally smarter, that's one reason I prefer to hear about 'current attainment' rather than 'ability' from teachers in primary schools. Intelligence isn't unitary it is about habits of mind which can be cultivated. Yet I think most still believe being intellectually superior or 'gifted' is something you are born with, will last a life time and is pre-determined just as eye or hair colour is pre-determined.

I also participated in the webchat with Matthew Syed - if anyone is interested it's probably still available on the site somewhere. I believe Matthew Syed is currently investigating 'ability' in schools, how it's spotted, how it's viewed and what the implications are. I will be very curious to see what he turns up.

I see all sorts of problems with our NC tracking system, it can mean that it's difficult for some children to go beyond their expectations (although I admit as a safeguard & check it generally does a good job). Claxton makes the point that once a child is generally seen as 'bright' by the teachers, they'll be treated as such and this can become a self fulfilling prophecy. If a child has been seen seen as 'slow' but their output improves in quality this is likely to be seen as result of their hard work rather than any improvement in cognitive ability. If a 'bright' child doesn't live up to early promise excuses tend to be found, lazy in with a bad crowd etc, but generally not that they may not have been so bright in the first place. As others have said there are also issues with being labelled bright, it isn't a helpful thing to do. Dweck points this out and squeezedatbothends I was like your son. I walked out of english S level as believed because I didn't understand the first question it wasn't for the likes of me, I must have reached my ability ceiling. Dweck's book literally changed my life and I think it should be compulsory reading for teachers, as should Guy's book. I had a fixed mindset but now I have a growth mindset, I have achieved more in my life since I read that book than ever before.

A dangerous teacher is one IMO who believes intelligence is fixed. Most seem to believe 'you've either got it or you haven't' and there isn't much anyone can do about it. Most assume intelligence is unitary, and can be accurately measured by an IQ or similar test. Most assume a seemingly high ability in a high status subject like maths or english means a child has a superior all round intellect. I worry that a poor performance in an early cognitive test administered by the school might mean that certain fixed beliefs about this child come into play. Sure, every teacher wants to see a child do well but it's human nature to label and make assumptions so we are likely at some level to assume the sky may not be the limit academically for this child. The same may be true for our level 4s at the end of KS2 for example. All the children that start ahead at our primary almost universally stay ahead, those that started ahead on the reading conveyor belt are now level 3A at the start of Y3 (Perhaps with one exception). Will the others catch them? Perhaps, but this group are perceived as very bright as they begin the new year which may give them some advantage in a class of 30 (although this isn't without it's flaws as others have said), not least sitting with children who are likely to be amongst the keenest in the class to learn. Not least because expectations are high. It's my view that an 'average' child with a lot of practice could be similarly accomplished. It's very dangerous to assume some children have less potential than others especially at an early stage yet I think we do on some level.

Claxton believes a 'gifted and talented' label is ok if we use it to mean a child currently surpasses it's peers in an area and should be encouraged to continue but it should never be used to mean 'possesses, all-round, high ability'.

All of this does not mean that there isn't some genetic component of 'intelligence' I like Claxton's analogy of intelligence in kitchen cooker terms (!) :):

Imagine that the genetic component of 'intelligence' is like the size of a kitchen cooker. Someone may have three cooking rings and single oven, and someone else has four rings and two ovens. These will set different hypothetic limits on the meals they can produce. But in practice, the quality, variety of their food generally reflects quite different things: how interested they are in cooking; the recipe books they have; how adventurous they are; who they can call for advice when a sauce curdles; and so on. In practice neither of the cooks with the different sized cookers is anywhere near the limit of their cooking 'potential'. Any differences in their meals are much more likely to reflect differences in interest, experience and support than they do the addition of another burner or a fan-assisted oven.

I read a lot on Mumsnet that suggests children are often tutored 'beyond their ability' I started an AIBU thread on this the other day to try to explore this further. I think it's an interesting and important area/topic.

Miggsie · 05/09/2011 18:33

DD is very bright, and also athletic but after reading Syed I always make sure to praise effort, and working on something that she isn't so good at. For instance she swims well, but she had some coaching where it was identified that her crawl stroke was a bit off, so she practised and practised and got better in just 3 lessons so we praised the effort she put in and the results she got by her effort.

Also in the class was a boy who wouldn't get in the pool because the water was "too cold" and then said "it wasn't fair" that the other children were better than him and DD actually turned to him and said "we're better because we all got in the pool and did a lot of swimming". We also make sure we discuss any perceived "failure" as a learning experience. DD is a perfectionist and used to tantrum terribly if something was not exactly as she planned it, so now we talk about what she is aiming at and the steps to get there.

However I also think people/children can be pushed too far and too fast in some cases. DD had a good attention span when she was 5, some children won't get that attention span until age 7 so teaching should be geared to the learning style. I moved DD into a school that goes at the individual child's pace, it does mean her class is mixed age, if it was a standard school her best friend would be a year below and several children should be a year above, but they progress when they are ready for the work not by age. A lot of parents dislike this but I think it's key in teaching a class as a whole rather then in ability sets within the same room with the teacher flitting from group to group.

cory · 06/09/2011 11:06

I like the cooker metaphor- it's about how you use your rings.

But I suspect when people talk about tutoring beyond ability what they mean is being crammed by a tutor and not developing your own initiative. Being able to pass the entrance exam but not being able to enjoy the course without constant handholding. A good cook is one who can work independently and learn from experience, maybe even take a few risks, not one who can produce a nice meal under constant supervision.

It is quite possible to be spoon-feed to good results at GCSEs, perhaps even A-levels, but a pupil who is lacking in creativitity and intellectual independence may end up have a miserable time at university where practice and hard work are not the only things required.

For my own dcs, I would hope that school gives them a chance to find out what kind of work or education would suit them individually. It's not just about getting in, it's also about getting something out of it.

Cortina · 06/09/2011 15:35

Good points about the importance of cultivating intellectual independence, Cory.

iggly2 · 06/09/2011 15:47

Great post Cory . I would argue that for most courses "practice and hard work" are all that's needed at Uni (esp undergraduate).

iggly2 · 06/09/2011 15:54

Most science/medicine/veterinary/dentistry...probably languages do not want creativity they want you to learn a list of facts/words to spew out into an essay (or multiple guess!), ie work not brains. For a lot of science independent thought and intelligence enters at postgraduate level. The arts and humanities do require independent intellectual thought and creativity and the ability to reason.

mamsnet · 06/09/2011 16:08

I strongly disagree with you wrt languages iggly2

In fact learning a language is probably as good an example of plasticity as you will find.. Hmm

iggly2 · 06/09/2011 16:27

I have no experience of languages hence the "probably" at undergraduate level do they ask far more than translations at undergraduate level. Are interpretation and development key elements as well?

mamsnet · 06/09/2011 16:31

All of the above. language students normally study literature in their language of choice too.

iggly2 · 06/09/2011 16:34

I did have doubts as to adding languages on the list. I do have experience in the medicine/vet/dentistry/science fields. I found literature in my own language difficult enough to study beyond surface level.

mamsnet · 06/09/2011 16:34

Glad we sorted that then.. Smile

RosemaryandThyme · 08/09/2011 10:36

Hello Cortina !
Have lost earlier threads but was and am enjoying and learning from these. (waves).
Thanks squeeze - interesting topic.

confidence · 09/09/2011 19:22

LovetheHarp - we had the same thing with ballet, and my understanding is that it's the ISTD (ballet exam board) who won't LET kids enter the early grades until they're a certain age, not down to the ballet schools themselves.

Totally on board with the gist of this thread. Currently dealing with my 5-year-old DD who's both years ahead in school and verging on what many would call child prodigy musical material, I can trace everything she's done - all her enthusiasm and achievement - to the way we've nurtured her. Yeah, she's probably "bright", whatever that means. But there's no essential difference between the way she does things and the way other people do. We model things, she gets interested, she tries, she fails, she tries again and fails a little less, we praise her effort, she keeps trying and succeeds. But because she's so positive and motivated about things, she does all this sooner, for longer, and much more persistently than most kids.

Avocets · 10/09/2011 07:34

I enjoyed your post cortina. And I think it's important to remember too that there can be a dark side to a child's desire to please, which is strongly linked to the celebration of achievement. I was what would now be labelled as a G&T child - strongly identified as such by teachers and parents. It was very much the defining feature of who "I" was. Secretly self harmed my way through school - scraping the skin off my arms and legs with a steel rule, and trying to suffocate myself with a large cushion (what children will do !??....) before graduating to burning myself with cigarettes at oxford. With my own daughters ( one of whom is at least as "clever" as I was) I do my very best (although not always successfully) not to praise pure intelligence.

kistigger · 30/09/2011 14:37

Miggsie - I would love my children to go to that type of school. I have a dream of one day opening and running a school with that system, I thought I was alone in this country in believing it is a better option!

In the meantime I have to hope that my DC's are praised at home and at school for their effort as well as their achievement.

I am interested though... several of you have mentioned that children both learn mental ability as well as have it genetically which I agree with. I am also aware that if it is not used and nurtured that some of that can simply wither away... so what do you do when your child is not being challenged to stretch their brains/skills/gifts etc in the way they currently need???

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