Vitamin D - widespread deficiencies and evidence of serious consequences

[Druzhok]

As featured on The Food Programme this afternoon (R4: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t66nr#synopsis )

The UK guidelines are far lower than those in most other northern (i.e. fewer hours of daylight and sun) countries. Apparently, it's a particular problem for women (esp. in pregnancy) and babies/small children, and ethnic minorities with darker skintones. The melatonin in the latter's skin offers protection against UV light that, whilst beneficial in sunnier locations, can lead to a deficiency in a northerly country like the UK.

My Dutch friend has given her children vit D drops since they were tiny: I have asked a GP, HV and pharmacist and told there was no need at all. The UK has apparently been very slow to react to the issue.

The best sources are oily fish, meat and egg yolk. If you have a darker skin tone and/or are vegetarian (or eat low quantities of the above sources), you should consider supplements.

Conditions triggered / exacerbated by Vit D deficiency include multiple sclerosis, muscle wastage, type A diabetes and loss of bone density (I assume that's Ricketts).

Who knew???

Apologies for any errors: working mainly from memory.

Stargirl, living in Northern Scotland you wouldn't be getting any vit D in the winter even if you were a traffic warden walking the streets all day every day - even if you wore a T shirt and shorts.

Where on earth do people get their vitamin D supplements from? It seems to me it is actually exceptionally difficult in the UK to get supplements of JUST vitamin D (and I would rather not be force fed vitamin A and other vitamins at the same time, and would also rather not be given calcium at the same time, since I don't have a shortage of calcium in my diet and wouldn't want an excess...). And even those supplements containing all those unwanted vitamins, minerals and oils that you can get over the counter along with vitamin D all seem to be limited to a pathetic and paltry 5mcg of vitamin D, which is what the recommended daily amount USED to be. Advice these days seems to be that most people should be getting at least double that - but is it possible to find a reputable source for getting that higher dose over the counter?????

rabbitstew I got mine from here last year when I was pregnant. I've still got a pot in the cupboard as I'm taking a daily multi-vitamin and don't want to take too much. I only found out about the need to take a Vit D supplement when pregnant from reading threads on MN - info was definitely not forthcoming from GP/MW.

I get mine from Holland & Barrett here. Liquid form, easily drunk with a quick swig of water. Give a low dose to the kids too.

BoringChoiceSchoolNickname :) Lol!

I get mine from Holland & Barrett. I take 5 tabs - 2000 IU every day.

Holland & Barrett it is, then. Thanks guys. I must say, though, I'm shocked that supermarkets and Boots are too stupid to advertise and sell pure vitamin D - may be something to do with them hoping to make more profit out of multivitamins that people don't actually need???....

Or maybe Boots keep their vitamin D stocks behind the counter where you can't see them, in the hope that you'll buy something more expensive... I've certainly seen evidence on the internet that they do make bottles of vitamin D tablets, but have NEVER seen any on the shelves. Or maybe they think it's OK to sell cod liver oil with vitamin D (only 5mcg) plus 100% of your vitamin A (which I don't want any more of, as I get plenty in my diet), but that vitamin D on its own is somehow dangerous?????..... even in relatively low doses?....

"You should take at least the 1,000 IU per day that the Department of Health advises

• for 2 reasons

1. Reduces post natal depression"

Really? Well this would have been useful to know

There was a thread the other day about this - apparently current NHS guidelines say that vit D should be given to BF babies, however hardly anyone on the thread had been told about this, it was the first most had heard of it. Strange.

here's the BF and vit D thread.

Again lots of people reporting that this is standard in other countries.

I breastfed both my babies - no advice ever either to take vitamin D myself or to give any to my children. So I didn't - you don't tend to give tiny babies vitamins, or indeed anything other than your breastmilk, unless given specific medical advice to do so. Once they were about 2 years old, I used to give them multivitamins in the Winter to give them a bit of extra vitamin D, but the low dose of vitamin D plus all the other vitamins I didn't really want (and which prevented me from giving them extra spoonfuls to make up to a reasonable amount of vitamin D, rather than half the daily requirement....) probably would have done nothing to rectify any deficits they had as a result of not getting much vitamin D during their first year of life, when the only advice I received was to keep them out of the sun... And even now, the NHS advice is so silly, it gives advice on what to do for babies to 5-year olds and what to do for teenagers who are deficient in vitamin D, but seems to assume that anyone between the ages of 5 and 18 will not be deficient in vitamin D, so gives no advice on that at all. Yet there must be lots of vitamin D deficient children over the age of 5 out there who have never been given vitamin D supplements between the ages of 0 and 5 and who have been told to put sun hats and sunglasses on, keep covered up in the sun and whose parents plaster them in suncream.

Even our small Boots here sells a Vitamin D-only, one a day tablet, so I don't know why so many people say they can't find it. You do have to look very thoroughly on Boots shelves, I've found: sometimes they are not logically organised (IMHO).

Annoyingly, it does say it's not for under-12s, but I just ignored this.

I wish I'd known that lack of Vitamin D can also be linked to asthma. Having religiously breastfed, exposed to moderate amounts of dirt, etc, I was dismayed when both my children developed it. Perhaps Vit. D would have helped.

That said, I never bought into the ridiculous neurosis about sunblock. OF course we used it, but not for a ten-minute run around in the playground in the UK.

I hardly ever put suncream on my children, because I hate the stuff, but they wear long sleeved shirts more often than most people and legionnaire sunhats all summer, because they tend to react badly to the sun/heat and come out in a rash otherwise. Maybe that means they don't need much sun to get their vitamin D, although since osteoporosis at a younger than average age runs strongly in the family, I'm not sure about that one.... I have scoured the shelves of our local Boots and still not found vitamin D only, nor could the staff there find it for me - maybe everyone else keeps sneaking in and buying it before me. You'd think they would sell vitamin D for 0-5 year olds, since they are the ones supposed to be taking it, and wouldn't advise that something shouldn't be given to under 12 year olds if, in fact, it just contains vitamin D...

Although the dose of the vitamin D in the tablets Boots technically sell, but not in sufficient quantities for there to be any left when I go in there, I think are in doses of 25 micrograms, which is 5 to 10 times the amount currently put into any children's vitamins on sale. And the vitamins currently on sale for children at most contain 5 mcg which is no longer the recommended daily amount to take as a supplement in most countries, but only half that amount (and this is the amount people are advised to take as a supplement, even after allowing for a healthy diet and sunshine exposure). And many more children's supplements contain only 2.5mcg. I really do find it very confusing, how the advice and what is available to follow it seem to be so far apart. Are they actually asking people to go out and buy adults' vitamins and give them to their children, without changing the advice on the adults' bottles that they shouldn't be doing that?

Tesco sell vitamin D too - here

I use Nutri Vitamin D3 drops. Biocare is also a good make. Solgar too. There are loads of online stores but watch out for dodgy sellers as there do seem to be a fair few sus looking supplements sites. This site seems pretty good www.revital.co.uk/Vitamin_D_2

I hope it's OK to write this again now that there's quite a bit of current interest in this thread. It would be great to help more pregnant women get their Vitamin D levels tested.

I was Vitamin D deficient in pregnancy even though I was taking supplements. Luckily I found out because my knowledgeable chiropractor advised me to be tested. My widwife agreed - even though there were no clinical signs of deficiency - so I was doubly lucky (friends of mine have been told no they can't be tested).

I've signed a 10 Downing Street e-petition to call for Vitamin D testing as routine in pregnancy. Please would you sign it too and pass it on?

Enough signatures and it can be debated in the House of Commons.

Thank you.

hiho.... xx

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/28536

Details:
Check Vitamin d levels as part of routine blood testing during pregnancy

Responsible department: Department of Health

Vitamin D has been shown as a major player in maternal & foetal health. Linked to numerous vital health issues, vitamin d deficiency is now known to be prevalent. In the last three years an increasing amount of research suggests that some of the damage done by vitamin d deficiency is done in-utero while the foetus is developing. Much of that damage may be permanent, that is it cannot be fully reversed by taking vitamin d after birth. This research indicates vitamin d deficiency during pregnancy endangers the mother's life & health & is the origin for a host of future perils for the child, especially for the child's brain & immune system. Pregnant women undergo a number of routine blood checks. It would be prudent to check vitamin d levels at the same time. This preventative care would empower women with knowledge so they can supplement for their health and that of their unborn baby. We call for ante natal screening to include the simple check of vitamin d levels known as 25 (OH)D.

That sounds like a good idea. I'll sign the petition. That's the problem I have about supplements, hihosilverlining - I don't want to buy them off the internet from some random website. I ought to be able to buy them from Boots or Sainsbury's, because they have a reputation to keep, so I wouldn't worry so much whether what I was taking was what was described on the packet.

It is ironic that it appears to be the countries which already routinely supplement milk and other products with vitamin D (unlike the UK) which are also the ones which have upped the advised daily supplement amount. Here, we not only make a big thing of protecting yourself from the sun and putting suncream on 10 minutes before you even go out, we also don't add vitamin D to milk and haven't changed the advice to manufacturers of vitamins about RDAs, so they still quote 5mcg as 100% of your RDA. To say the advice in this country is uncoordinated and inconsistent is to make a serious understatement.

Thank you rabbitstew, that's brill of you.

Here's the link again for anyone else who is up for signing too:
epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/28536

I agree with you about online. I buy mine from a chiropractic clinic and a natural health shop (it's an independent one, not H&B) but it's hard to know who has good ones nearby hence why I mentioned the website Revital as they are legit.

And uncoordinated is definitely the word for UK advice. And that goes for the VitD advice in pregnancy too. I'm so cross that friends of mine were denied the test but I was allowed. Where's the consistency there?

I wish I could sign the petition 100,000 times myself and get it fast-tracked to the House of Commons. Please everyone sign & share. Big thanks.

I'm quite upset that something as easy as taking vit d. during pregnancy and breastfeeding might have prevented my kids' asthma. What a wasted opportunity.

I watched the vitamin d news story with interest too, I'm very pale (so presumably absorb the sun better) BUT completely avoid the sun because of it. I've had quite poor health for a couple of years, and decided to get my vit d levels tested - and they are really low (14). I had previously been on the verge of a diagnosis of ME but it turns out I probably have osteomalacia!

If anyone wants to get theirs tested, there is an NHS hospital that does it for the public for £20 - www.vitamindtest.org.uk (I'm not connected just a name changer for other reasons).

I'm so pleased to have found out, it had got to the stage where I could only walk very short distances and was having real problems lifting/standing and just generally doing every day activities. I appreciate that is the extreme end of the scale, but I had no idea that it is very, very difficult to not be vit d deficient in this country. The sun is not high enough in the sky for the correct UVB rays between Oct-Mar, and as stores only last a max of two months, virtually all people are affected.

I'm not surprised you are upset abraid.

I am a little narked about the PND thing.

Hi, I've not read every post sorry in a rush!!
I've been seeing the doctor for years regarding my painful bones and joints, and I eventually gave up for a few years because the doctor I felt could not be bothered or hadn't a clue, but it started to get very life limiting ie,, walking up the stairs my knees would crunch and feel swollen (they weren't) and painful and my hips clicked and I can move my pelvis by pushing it forward gently while stretching,, went bk to the docs and seen the new doctor who is so lovely and she instantly checked me and told me that I could have a vitamin d deficiency, she also said that I was not to worry as it's treatable, I feel it should not of had to of been left this long, for even just a test to be done, I do feel the uk IS lacking in new knowledge especially the older doctors,, I was constantly told it was growing pains (im28)
And hormonal changers then it was because I was pregnant,, know reading what it can lead to makes me furious, I'm still waiting on results but it's more than likely I have it..
Rant over just wanted to share my experience

BBC article

would a 2000 iu dose be too high for children do you think?

That sounds rather too high to me - I think it's equivalent to 50 mcg and the current advice for supplements for adults is 10mcg, so I wouldn't really want to give my children 5 times the recommended daily adult supplement. I would have thought you could only happily take that sort of dose if you knew for certain that you were already deficient in vitamin D and therefore needed to catch up quickly to get to what are currently considered acceptable levels. Nobody knows for certain what the optimum amount of vitamin D is and what a dangerously high amount is, we just know that there are generally accepted dangerously low amounts. At least a maintenance dose should enable the body to get up to a reasonable level of vitamin D over time (just not nearly quickly enough for those who already have a severe problem). That's why the complete failure to give any advice to parents of children over the age of 5 who have never previously taken vitamin D supplements is so incredibly frustrating.

thank you rabbit, yes I did think it sounded rather high, I was just unsure as it stated suitable for all ages on the packet!

I agree it is so very frustrating to be given so little helpful information (except on MN of course!)

I have gone for a 100 iu liquid for the children and a higher strength one for me. I am so grateful for all the advice on this thread, I very rarely leave the house so I think a supplement is needed, and had I not seen this I wouldn't have bought any