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Genealogy

Missing death entry?

46 replies

knittingaddict · 28/01/2022 11:21

My husband's 3 x great grandmother is called Amelia and was married to John Foster. I can't find their marriage or anything else about Amelia.

The things I do know:

John was born in Dinnington, Yorkshire in 1786.
He was having children with Amelia from about 1820, possibly 1818 in Dinnington.
Baptisms for children go up to 1833 in Dinnington.
John, Amelia and their children are missing from the 1841 census.
Most/all? of the children ended up in Sheffield, got married and had children there.

I have found a burial entry for an Amelia Fisher of Cowell House, aged 60. She was buried at St Nicholas, Bradfield, Sheffield on 30 November 1848. The facts fit quite well and there aren't a lot of Amelia Fishers. However I can't find her in the death register on Ancestry, FMP or freebmd and I really need it to see if this is my Amelia.

I'm an experienced family historian, but I've hit a bit of a brick wall here. Any thoughts on missing death certificates and what on earth I can do from here? I suspect it's a lost cause at this point, but I never give up.

As you can imagine looking for the deaths/burials of John Fisher has it's own issues.

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knittingaddict · 28/01/2022 14:10

I think I've found it. Maybe.

An Amelia Fisher's death was registered in the 1st qtr 1849 in the Wortley district which covers Ecclesfield where Amelia was buried. It would be a very delayed death entry, but it must be it.

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knittingaddict · 28/01/2022 14:12

I will update the thread when I get the certificate.

Thank you so much for all the help.

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toppkatz · 28/01/2022 18:28

Being registered in the following quarter was my first thought, and I found it straight away.

It wouldn't be all that unusual for the official to be late in sending their report off, and missing the deadline for the quarter. so I reckon that's the one.

knittingaddict · 28/01/2022 18:40

I imagine it's like today when a death certificate is delayed due to an inquest, which seems to have happened in this case.

I've also found a likely death and burial for her husband John Fisher in 1844. Hopefully it might give a clue about their earlier lives. An address would be good.

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Saker · 29/01/2022 10:36

I had found the same death record and was just about to post when I saw you had got it too! I had a try to find them in the census too and searched on the name of her son Francis as being a slightly more unusual name. I couldn't find Amelia, but I can find him with his wife, Emma in 1861. I looked up their marriage record and it says his father is John Fisher, blacksmith. I thought that might help with identifying him against other John Fishers if you didn't know it already.

knittingaddict · 07/02/2022 08:41

I've received the death certificates and thought I would update.

Amelia Fisher (widow) - died 27 November 1848 at Cowell House, Bradfield, Yorkshire. She was 61 years old. She was found in bed and died of spasm of the stomach. (Got to love old style causes of death).

We've looked at old maps, but can't find Cowell House yet.

John Fisher - died 21 January 1844 at Moscar Bank House, Yorkshire. He was 58 years old, a blacksmith and died of liver disease. The informant was John Fisher jnr of Moscar Bank House and was described as an inmate. It has a note in that box saying "occupier deceased".

We've found lots of houses and places on old maps in the Moscar area with the name Moscar in the title, but no Moscar Bank House yet. We also can't find out anything about the place and the "inmate" makes it sound like an institution. Also no idea what "occupier deceased" means in this context and why it's relevant to the death registration.

So some answers, but also more questions.

I'm sure this is my John and Amelia and I think we have found their marriage and Amelia's/Millicent's surname. Unfortunately it's the worst possible name - Smith. Sad

Thank you so much for your help with this and if anyone has any idea about Moscar Bank House and what it was, I would be very interested.

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knittingaddict · 07/02/2022 08:46

@Saker

I had found the same death record and was just about to post when I saw you had got it too! I had a try to find them in the census too and searched on the name of her son Francis as being a slightly more unusual name. I couldn't find Amelia, but I can find him with his wife, Emma in 1861. I looked up their marriage record and it says his father is John Fisher, blacksmith. I thought that might help with identifying him against other John Fishers if you didn't know it already.
I have most of the information about the children of John and Amelia. I thought the surname Fisher would make it difficult, but it's been surprisingly easy. They were all in Sheffield, stayed in the area and the Sheffield parish records are all on FMP with copies of the original marriage entries. It's going back that has proved tricky.
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TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 13:22

He's one of the blacksmith Fishers? I found a spate of them in the newspapers.

Oh lord, there goes today... Grin

TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 13:27

That Geograph link for Cowell House I gave above has an OS grid reference and a little map with a marker. It's on Penistone Road at grid ref SK25199444.

Cowell House: www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3452132

TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 13:31

"Inmate" in old records frequently just means "resident". I used to get misled that way too, but it doesn't indicate an institution.

I'm intrigued by "occupier deceased". I suspect it means the official Occupier (for property holding and electoral purposes) was the deceased.

That would also fit with the son being described differently, as merely an inmate.

Madcats · 07/02/2022 13:33

I accidentally forgot to cancel my subscription to Find My Past.

I'm shamelessly placemarking and will see what I can find.

This website often has scans of original docs and some of the transcriptions are dreadful. I suppose that fewer people know how to read cursive script these days.

Poorhouses were quite common. Many smaller ones appear to have been funded by local churches.

TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 13:41

Well now, this is odd.

I can find no reference in the newspapers at any date to a Moscar Bank House, or even Moscar Bank.

That's a little unusual now the area is well-represented in the British Newspaper Archive. One would normally expect some mention, even if were just Moscar Bank.

TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 14:06

Does this sound like it could be him? It's a case arising from the fact that paupers were only permitted relief in their home parish, and there were complicated rules determining which the home parish was.

This John Fisher has presumably claimed relief in Sheffield parish, which is trying to palm him off onto Brampton Bierlow... which is trying to palm him right back onto Sheffield. This happened a lot...

TUESDAY, — The Court opened at nine o'clock.
Brampton Bierlow, Appellants, Sheffield, Respondents.
Mr. Hall and Mr. Pashley for the appellants, and Sir G. Lewin and Mr. Hardy for the respondents.
This was an appeal against an order of justices for the removal of John Fisher, a pauper, with his wife and children, from Sheffield to Brampton Bierlow. The pauper proved and produced his indentures, to shew that in 1815 he was apprenticed to Geo. Schofield, of Worsbro', blacksmith, for 5 years and 14 weeks, and it was stipulated that he should have three weeks in January each year, to go to school. In these three weeks of the last year, instead of going to school, he went to West Melton, and worked for John White, who told him if he would come again when he had completed his apprenticeship, he would engage him. In March, 1821, the pauper came of age, and receiving his indentures from Schofield, went to White and agreed with him for a year, at nine guineas a year, and his board and lodging. Having served that year, he made another agreement on the same terms, for three years more, which he served. These two agreements were written in a book by Schofield, and signed by the pauper with his cross, but he had never seen the book since. He lately applied to Mary Kelly, the widow of Schofield, for it, but she said she could not find it….. G. Schofield proved that he knew John Fisher, once his apprentice, who having completed his apprenticeship with him, went and worked for John White, of West Melton. …. Mary Kelly was called, and proved that she had sought for, and could not find the book in which her former husband had the entries of Fisher's engagements. She said also that there was only one agreement, and that was for three years, made when the pauper was the apprentice of Schofield, and worked three weeks for White. There was no fresh agreement made when Fisher came back after the completion of his apprenticeship. It came out also that a man named Bell made out White's accounts, after his death. The appellants' Counsel, therefore, objected that respondents had not sufficiently accounted for the loss of the book, but should have called Bell, who, for aught that appeared, might have it ...The Court overruled the objection. …. Mr. Hall then relying on the evidence of Mrs. Kelly, urged that any agreement made by the pauper during his apprenticeship must be a nullity; and as Mrs. Kelly had negatived the statement that there was any agreement subsequent to the termination of his apprenticeship, it did not appear that there was anything more than a weekly hiring .The Court confirmed the order.
Sheffield Independent - Saturday 09 July 1842

TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 15:29

Scrub that: the pauper came of age in 1821, so was born in 1800.

Your John Fisher married to Amelia is too old; and you say they were having children from 1812, so any son John Fisher is too young.

This is good, as being a pauper in 1842 did rather conflict with the idea of John holding property in 1844.

knittingaddict · 07/02/2022 16:49

TressiliansStone Thank you for looking. It's a shame that it's not correct because I love stuff like that. Dates and places are all very well, but I love seeing the details of people's lives.

Your thoughts on "inmate" are also helpful. I've never seen it before outside of work houses and prisons, so I won't let it sidetrack me.

It's definitely Moscar Bank House. My husband loves old maps and he did have a look, but there were no good maps for the right period, so not that helpful. There is a Moscar lodge and Moscar plantation and a few others, but no Moscar Bank House marked on a map.

We've got a marriage for a John Fisher to a Millicent Smith on 26 Dec 1811 in Clarborough, Nottinghamshire. Our John and Amelia/Millicent had their first child on 12 Oct 1812 in the Dinnington, Yorkshire area, so the dates fit well. I couldn't find any other evidence for John and Millicent apart from our family and I don't think they are having children elsewhere. It looks promising to me. The Smith made my heart sink though.

There is a baptism for Millicent Smith daughter of Francis in Hayton next to Clarborough. Could well be her.

It's good to bounce ideas around and am grateful for all your thoughts.

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knittingaddict · 07/02/2022 16:51

I'm intrigued by "occupier deceased". I suspect it means the official Occupier (for property holding and electoral purposes) was the deceased.

Of course that's what it means. Blush I seem to be losing my edge.

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knittingaddict · 07/02/2022 17:02

[quote TressiliansStone]That Geograph link for Cowell House I gave above has an OS grid reference and a little map with a marker. It's on Penistone Road at grid ref SK25199444.

Cowell House: www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3452132[/quote]
Thank you!

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TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 18:36

1811 is a bit early to be hopeful of a newspaper notice about a marriage (unless people are very posh). Certainly I can't find one.

Such notices become very much more common in the second half of the C19th, so it might be worth pursuing the children and indeed grandchildren's marriages in newspapers. You might strike lucky with something like "X, to Jane, daughter of John Fisher for 40 years blacksmith in Moscar Bank".

I don't know if this (not v fulsome) notice is one of yours:

On Thursday, Mr. John Fisher, blacksmith, to Mrs. Mary Nelson.
Sheffield Independent - Saturday 07 June 1845

I appreciate you might not want to reveal all this, but if you fancy letting me know the names, spouses and dates of marriage of the younger generation, I'll have a quick look.

TressiliansStone · 07/02/2022 18:55

And yy to the details being what brings it all to life!

knittingaddict · 07/02/2022 18:57

They aren't on my tree yet and I can't see how they would fit in at the moment. Chances are they will be relatives, but there are a fair few John Fishers knocking around and just about every man seems to be a blacksmith or sythe maker or blade forger in Sheffield. It's tricky.

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Cakepig · 09/02/2022 12:38

One of my ancestors is described as an inmate, turns out he was in a poorhouse. Another is in hospital, and I noticed a handful of others noted as inmate rather than patient.

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