UPF Discussion Thread

[sunlovingcriminal]

Hi all, wondering whether any of us here would be up for a UPF discussion/support group?

We recently watched the panorama documentary on UPF, as well as reading the ultra processed people book- and have decided to make a lifestyle change for our family.

So, out with the cereal, fruit yogurts, packaged breads, squash and pre-made sauces

And in with the homemade everything...

It is taking a lot of prep and cooking. We're both a bit exhausted and overwhelmed but quite determined.

We have 3 teenage boys- so it's going to be interesting seeing whether we can get them to enjoy both the cooking and eating.

We're one week in and I do already feel better. I am not as hungry- my urge to snack has gone- and my reliance on artificial sugar fixes seems to have diminished.

Still on the hunt for alternatives to stock cubes though! Other than making from scratch (which I fear may be inevitable!).

Would be great to hear some inspiration from others, or great non-upf swaps!

Jesus Christ. That is worrying .

Then why not use lemon juice?

The volumes used would make that impossible. I expect some organic brands or health brands do.

Perhaps it will make everything taste too lemony? I make elderflower cordial each year and was feeling very smug; ingredients are sugar, water, elderflowers, lemons and - citric acid. Which I guess is there as a preservative, though only effective til it is opened as it soon goes mouldy if not refrigerated.

Whilst not a faff to make, there is only a short window of opportunity as just opened, perfectly dry elderflowers are sometimes only around for a day or so, putting me off experimenting with different recipes. So think I’m going to take my chances with citric acid (and not binning this year’s cordial).

The volume of lemons needed would make that very difficult. Part of the argument against UPF food is the environmental cost, you'd need a huge space to grow enough lemons for all the citric acid you need

I think that while attempting to remove upf from your diet is a good idea both for ourselves, families and the planet, people (in general as a population) should be careful this doesn't start creating a food obsession that becomes a mental health issue.

I'm not sure that that's the case. The juice of lemons and limes is clearly not the same as this stuff:

"Today, 99% of citric acid in commercial use is manufactured from fermented corn syrup and Aspergillus niger (a type of mould)....

"While the basic molecular formula for natural citric acid and MCA is the same (C-6,H-8,O-7), MCA contains the potential of contamination by impurities and fragments of Aspergillus niger.

"While the FDA currently lists MCA as a safe ingredient, it was developed at a time before the agency monitored food additives. In 1958, the US adopted the Food Additives Amendment, making any ingredients added to food subject to FDA approval. However, Congress excluded from this requirement all food ingredients in use before 1958."

Interesting article, thanks for posting.

(I agree that we need to guard against unhealthy obsessing and unrealistic goals; but I prefer to be as informed as possible before then picking my battles.)

I just got back from marks and Spencer’s. I was a bit sad going round all the pre made food I used to get as easy dinners and treats and the majority are all upf 🙁 I found some beef broth in their freezer which is just beef bones, water, tomato paste, onion and salt. So though this looked good for soups etc

Has anyone heard any of the Food Matters Live podcasts? I found it randomly yesterday. There’s some interesting ones on there about UPF including the link with mental health difficulties.

@Retrievemysanity thanks for the podcast recommendation, I've added it to my list.

I've been listening to Diet Doctor with Dr Bret Scher, he had guests on and covers a wide range of food related subjects, I've found it quite useful.

Following in from Ultra Processed People I read The Dorito Effect about the history of flavourings by Mark Schatzker.

Sounds boring but it was actually fascinating and ends in research about how the flavours in real food guides you to the nutrients you need, like the weaning research in the UPF book.

He talks about how modern farming has prioritised yield over flavour and therefore nutrition, so even if we're eating real food we might still not be meeting our nutritional requirements.

He is very into tomatoes and how the depth of flavour of a really good tomato means it has various micronutrients we crave.

I really enjoyed the book, I'm going to read his others, one is about meat and the other about cravings.

Hello! I've been following this thread for a while, and am now trying to commit more to removing/reducing UPF from my diet. I've been reading Bee Wilson's 'The Way We Eat Now' which isn't specifically about UPFs, but about modern food production and culture in general, and have been really enjoying it. Lots to think about.

Just a point about the citric acid concerns raised on the last few pages... Obviously each individual person can choose quite how far they want to take the notion of excluding/reducing UPFs, but something I try and remind myself of is that the NOVA classification includes a category for 'processed culinary ingredients.' These may be processed, even highly processed, but because you use them as an ingredient in combination with other (unprocessed) foods, and you don't consume them on their own, I think you can be more relaxed about this. So I don't get worked up about a tin of tomatoes or a tube of tomato puree with citric acid in, because I'm not going to eat the whole tin/the whole tube, just part of it in an otherwise entirely unprocessed meal, and the amount of citric acid I'm consuming is very small.

The other point about citric acid is that yes, citric acid is produced using mould - but so are many things, for example blue cheese. That doesn't in and of itself make it dangerous or bad. Many processes applied to food sound unappetising when you look at what is really happening (fermentation, for example.)

Finally, I saw the Lyme's Disease site was cited in support of the citric acid concerns, and I'd be cautious there too. Although it sounds and (initially) looks like a legitimate website that's presenting information in an objective way, akin to Cancer Research or the British Heart Foundation, that's not the case. The site promotes the idea of 'chronic Lyme Disease', which is widely regarded as a pseudomedical diagnosis that is not supported by the mainstream medical profession, and for which there is no convincing scientific evidence.

Anyway, all this to say, as posters have above, that it's easy to get sucked into being overly restrictive when considering anything about diet (especially given the proliferation of bad sources), but my view is that I'm just going to try my best with the reliable information I have. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good!

Very sensible post! I didn't like blue cheese when I ate dairy, but I'm personally not worried about citric acid even if it is made from mould.

So I’ve been looking at cans of baked beans and I’ve got some that have cornflour in (m and s) and some with modified maize starch ( Sainsburies ) .I’ve also got Mr Organic but they are sooo expensive . I don’t want to do away with baked beans - they are really handy to give quickly to sporty teens when they want food at wierd times . I’m thinking modified maize starch is worse than cornflour but Google is a bit inconsistent .. anyone any idea please ?

The cornflour ones sound fine :) not the modified maize starch ones.

My understanding is that if something only has ingredients you'd find in your kitchen then it's not UPF (just processed which is ok). Cornflour is surely no different to wheat flour - it's processed but not UPF and is an ingredient people just have (I do), so I'd say those are fine. Modified maize starch is not something found in an ordinary kitchen cupboard so that one is UPF.

cornflour, is fine as it's just a normal ingredient

That makes sense - thanks folks

Just seen someone on Twitter ask Chris VT about an app for UPF foods

twitter.com/doctorchrisvt/status/1679551144110989332?s=46&t=OD0tMok8rbGQj0XbFHZNfA

He recommended open food facts uk. I've just downloaded it and scanned the Mayo we have in the fridge. As expected, It's a pretty clear no! Happily the pasta we had for dinner was fine!

Love to join in too, if that's okay.

Just working my way through Ultra Processed People.

We eat mainly from home, and well (but certainly not perfectly) and looking to be better, but not too obsessive!

Hello, joining to learn more about UPF

Can anyone give me tips of making a sour dough starter? Is it fairly straight forward?

Spent some time scanning the sauces in the fridge with the UPF app I downloaded last week. As expected they are nearly all NOVA 4 except for the Dr Wills from Tesco which scored a 3.

What has surprised me is that acetic acid - which I thought was vinegar, but is actually an additive used in vinegar - is considered UPF by some. Google is confusing me on this, so if anyone understands the science I'd be grateful for an explanation. Not least because I made mint sauce yesterday with vinegar, thinking I was avoiding UPF...

I found organic - preferably stoneground - flour made the best starter.

Start with about 50g flour / 50g water.

Flour and water is all you need. I think Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's instructions for how to start out were fairly un-intimidating, IIRC..? Honestly, it's really easy once you've got the starter going, and that bit's not hard either, just sounds more complicated than it really is!

If someone could post a link to the HFW starter instructions I would be grateful. I love sourdough bread.

https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/10/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall-recipes-sourdough

Found it! I’m going to try this.