Finrot :-(

[pugsandseals]

We bought 4 new fish 2 weeks ago which are all doing well (guppies & platys) but the original fish (at least the guppies) are dropping like flies

Our normal fish shop has closed so we went somewhere else (won't be going there again!).

Fish tails seem to be going a pointy shape as all their fins disappear seemingly overnight! Have dosed the tank with finrot treatment, but is there anything else we can do to help save the remaining 30 or so fish? We took the first poorly fish to a local fish shop & he found it very hard to diagnose - thought it was finrot but that is also looked like the fish has been attacked by a bigger one (we don't have anything bigger than guppies). Really annoyed as the only reason we bought some extra fish was to get some more females as we seem to have more male babies being born than females . DD is distraught!

Help!

Apart from a couple of tetras, the only other animals in the tank are assasin snails & tiger snails BTW

Just thinking, if you did a water change a couple of weeks ago did you notice a smell a bit like rotten eggs?

When we did the fishless cycle it seemed to take a lot to get any colour on the test kits - nothing ever spiked about 0.25, so I wonder if it didn't cycle properly?

Never been sure whether to vacuum the gravel or not so it's been done some of the time!

Meds been in less than a week ago.

The filter is a built in Juwel one & DH always insists on pouring the new water in through it which I think just pushes all the filter bacteria into the tank.

There has been lots of detritus sitting on the gravel in the last few days which is difficult to vacuum out - most of it is plant-based though!

No major smells noticed until Wednesday when the room stank of aquasafe!

Urgh, aquasafe stinks, doesn't it?

Right.

0.25ppm would not have been enough really to cycle the tank. Did you use household ammonia to cycle or did you use fish food? Even if the tank was not cycled then, it would have started cycling once you added the fish so if it's had fish in it for a good few months then it would definitely have a fully cycled filter.

Pouring new water through the filter is probably not the best way to put water back into a tank. I usually pour it in over and old colander so that the sand doesn't go everywhere. I don't think pouring it through the filter would flush all the bacteria into the tank but it might kill some of them off.

Plant-based detritus is still bad- anything that's dead can break down into ammonia and make your snail problem worse. I usually snip off any leaves that look a bit manky before they can break off and fall to bits- it's harder to clean them up then and I'm quite lazy

Gravel vaccing needs to be done every week to stop anaerobic patches of gas building up in your substrate and to stop bits of crap getting stuck and rotting. Since you've got burrowing snails you shouldn't get too many problems with anaerobic patches but I would keep on top of the gravel vaccing anyway. If you don't have a gravel vac then you can make one really easily by cutting the bottom off a plastic drink bottle and sticking the syphon tube through the neck.

How often have you been testing the water?

Generally once per week

Did you notice the ammonia level rise by a lot after you first stocked the tank?

Re-reading your original post, I think it's possible that the new fish might have brought something in with them. Did you notice anything different about the dead fish? Any lumps, bumps, bits missing, hollowed stomach, arched back, differently coloured bits, red streaks, worms hanging out of its bum? Necrosis (it looks like its just disintegrating)?

Ammonia levels have never really got much above zero ever. Certainly not that we've noticed!

I think the new fish did bring something with them, but they are all still swimming happily, it's the original fish that have been dying - there are some dying with absolutely no visable symptoms and others whose tails turn pointy until they can't swim properly & then die. Local fish shop diagnosed possible finrot (hence the treatment) or being attacked by other fish. It literally looks like the difference between a dry paintbrush (healthy fish) and a wet one (poorly/dead fish).

Hoping that a big hit on water quality will get them all better asap!

I'm sorry that I can't help and hope your fishes get well soon, but every time this thread hits my active convos I think it's a babyname thread and go

Fin clamping is usually a sign of water quality problems. It's weird that your ammonia never got much about zero I'm wondering if maybe you've got a duff test kit. Which brand is it? Do you know how old it is?

Finrot can be contagious but for all the fish to just go like that suddenly then there would have to be some other problem as well.

So 'fin clamping' as you call it may not be finrot anyway?

Levels this morning are Ammonia 0.2, Nitrite 0, Phosphate 0.4 & ph 8.0. The ph is baffling!

Will prune some plants later. Will also do another big vac but I don't want all the rubbish out of the gravel as thats part of the eco-system isn't it?

I wonder if we need more clean up crew than just the 2 tiger snails?

No, they are two different things. Fin rot is when the fin actually rots away and it's usually easy to spot. Fin clamping is when the fish holds its fins close to its body because it is stressed. Here are some pictures to look at while you are not eating-

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=fin+clamping+fish&um=1&hl=en&biw=1680&bih=850&tbm=isch&tbnid=7Kut43wfTO5wuM:&imgrefurl=fishfantasy.blogspot.com/&docid=bL-xZM3p0AzBPM&w=320&h=214&ei=EBhZTr6TD4HG8QOnsrifDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=668&vpy=476&dur=1465&hovh=171&hovw=256&tx=199&ty=50&page=5&tbnh=157&tbnw=228&start=124&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:26,s:124" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Fin clamping

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=fin+rot&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1680&bih=850&tbm=isch&tbnid=zXBsj9CPNAZEdM:&imgrefurl=www.aquaticspecialist.co.uk/%3Fpage_id%3D201&docid=7kDh7Hmz23isZM&w=431&h=393&ei=ZRpZTvFaw6LxA8a-qKMM&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=473&page=3&tbnh=151&tbnw=196&start=60&ndsp=33&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:60&tx=82&ty=104" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Fin rot

What is your tap water pH? What sort of gravel do you have in your tank?

Dirt in the gravel is not part of the eco system, it's part of the problem. Because the good bacteria is aerobic, the vast majority of it live in the filter where there is a steady flow of water. Any crud hanging around in the gravel will just add to the ammonia load and harbour bacteria that could cause infections in your fish.

Clean up crews in a fresh water tank pretty much consists of whoever is doing the water changes things like snails and shrimp add just as much to the bioload as they take out. Some snails will eat dying vegetation but they also poo a lot so you wouldn't be any further ahead by adding more. I would just take 5 mins a day to give the plants a tidy up. You can get long-handled scissors especially for use in aquaria so it doesn't have to be a tough job.

I'm determined to get to the bottom of your pH mystery

God that sounds geeky, no wonder I'm such a hit at dinner parties

tap water is ph 7.5

will get vacuuming!

Is that testing straight from the tap or after it's been left to sit for 24 hours? You might get a different reading if you leave it to sit. What sort of gravel do you have in your tank?

fine black gravel

testing has been straight from the tap yes - leaving it for 24hrs sounds like a good idea so will try that!

just done another 10% water change & had a good prune while I was there. trouble is I always seem to srit up all the gunk trying to get the siphon going, I wonder if a battery powered one would work any better?

srit =stir

And the pH in your tank right now is 8? Do you have any rocks in there?

2 bits of slate - one darker in colour than the other (one approx 3x5 inches, one 5x5) + bridge & treasure chest ornaments

ph is currently 8 yes

Slate shouldn't be affecting the pH unless it's got traces of anything else in there- can you see any sparkly bits in it? If it's got mineral deposits in it then that might be altering the pH. The best way to tell would be to take the slate out and put it in a bucket of water for a week. Test the pH at the start and the end to see if it's changed. You could try the same thing with the ornaments but normally they are ceramic so they are perfectly safe.

latest tests, nitrite & ammonia both back to zero

ph back to normal at 8.0
phosphates same as before so will keep pruning

thanks all for the help!

Don't worry too much about the phosphate level, it's manageable and it's in your tap water anyway.

Did you take a look at the fin clamping picture? What do you reckon?

yes it's definately more like that than the finrot one!

Quick question -

All is looking ok now except phosphate levels which are up at 2.0. Will phosphates turn into nitrites & might that be what caused our spike before?

Many thanks

No, phosphate isn't harmful to fish directly. You only need to worry if you get shedloads of algae because that can cause the oxygen level of the water to drop. I doubt that phosphate is responsible for your water quality problems, 2ppm is higher than ideal but it's not that high. You could just chuck in some fast-growing plants like hygrophila polysperma and that will soak a fair bit of it up.

If you want to lower the phosphate levels then check your tap water and your fish food, they are usually the main culprits.

Just looked up hygrophila polysperma and that's the stuff we already have.

A bit confused though - do you really mean we should add more plants to get rid of phosphate? I'd have thought we would need rid of some not add more ?

Plants use up phosphate, they don't produce it unless you let the dead leaves hang around. And then phosphate would be the least of your worries because the dead leaves would also contribute to the bioload (releasing more ammonia) AND cause a boom in the snail population.

You are worrying about phosphate too much, I don't even test mine unless I see a lot of algae. This is a good article about phosphate in the aquarium.

Elodea densa is another fast growing plant you could try if you wanted, it's cheap too.