Late term abortion, high court

[Anycrispsleft]

I saw this on the BBC this morning - it's High Court review of the rules on late term abortions. The campaigners are seeking to remove the exception to the ban on post 24 week abortion that allows it in the case of "non-lethal" disabilities. The woman who is asking for the review wants the law to be changed on the grounds that it's discrimination against disabled people.

Apologies if this case has been covered before, I'm a newcomer to FWR having been radicalised by you people on Twitter. I just wanted to express this thought that occurred to me: the trans debate has shown me that whatever good-thinking progressives think, rights are sometimes like pie, in that giving one person more rights can mean less rights for someone else. And this is also like that, isn't it? There's a balancing of the rights of the foetus (not that a foetus has legal rights, at least not yet) and the rights of the mother. Until now I used to sort of shy away from this bit of the ethics of abortion. I am very strongly pro choice, but I always wanted to be able to justify that stance in a sort of objective way, considering the cases of the foetus and the mother as though I had no skin in the game. And I realised I can't actually do that, because I do have skin in the game, because I am a woman, I have two girls, and I want all of us to have control over our own bodies. It's not that I think I am objectively right. I want to win this. I don't care about the rights and wrongs from an academic point of view. I don't want my children to have to carry a child they don't want to term. Full stop. I'm sure others would be able to put this in a much more eloquent way but I feel like I've reached a new point in my feminism and I wanted to share it. I'm not neutral. I'm team woman.

In a summary of the decision, by Lord Justice Underhill, Lady Justice Thirlwall and Lord Justice Peter Jackson, the judges said the Act does not interfere with the rights of the “living disabled”.

They said: “The court recognises that many people with Down’s syndrome and other disabilities will be upset and offended by the fact that a diagnosis of serious disability during pregnancy is treated by the law as a justification for termination, and that they may regard it as implying that their own lives are of lesser value.

“But it holds that a perception that that is what the law implies is not by itself enough to give rise to an interference with Article 8 rights (to private and family life, enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights).”

www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/national/23149361.woman-downs-syndrome-loses-abortion-case-appeal/

That sums it up perfectly - and I'm glad she lost. I hope the UK Supreme Court upholds this decision.

That’s interesting - another allusion there from judges to people not having the right not to be upset and/or offended.

(Sorry I always get a bit paranoid typing that double negative. I hope it makes sense.)

I also think the summary makes it very clear that foetuses don't have personhood in the UK, which is a point that can't be hammered home too hard or too often.

The ruling is now published:

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/crowter-v-secretary-of-state-for-health-and-social-care-2/

In the Guardian

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/25/heidi-crowter-woman-downs-syndrome-loses-court-of-appeal-abortion-law-case

(Just about to read it)

Vogelmann added: “I have a condition that would have allowed my parents to terminate their pregnancy with me … I don’t view it as a judgment on my life, and my quality of life, if someone were to terminate a pregnancy with my condition.

That resonates with me.

So a foetus does not have “personhood” until it is born.

If the baby that is born/aborted is viable surely it’s right are equal to every other person?

what happens to the aborted but viable foetus?

@whitewave it is killed before labour is induced.

If the baby that is born/aborted is viable surely it’s right are equal to every other person?

Thankfully the law disagrees with you here.

Rights begin at life. Life begins at first breath.

Oh!

Do women carrying babies with other syndromes also have the right to abort up to 40 weeks?

Rights begin at life. Life begins at first breath

my question was before I understood that the foetus is killed.

I was assuming that breath had be drawn - thus my use of “viable”

But if you use the words aborted and viable - this reads like you mean in the pregnancy, as abortion can only exist in a pregnancy, not after delivery.

@whitewave yes, they do. There is no limit for serious medical conditions. And that is as it should be.

I’m feeling my way here as my generation had little choice in the matter - I’m nearly 80.

my point is that clinicians will have a good idea that if the foetus is aborted or born before term whether it will be viable. That comment was made before I understood that the foetus is killed.

still trying to come to terms with that.

@whitewave the reality is harsh. But the reality is also that the vast majority of late term abortions are for very serious health conditions, many of them incompatible with life. This is why we need to treat abortion as a medical issue only. There are no easy or comfortable solutions here, but the choice of the mother has to be paramount.

The issue around DS is more complex still, because a substantial number of people with DS are only mildly affected - these are the ones we see on television and in court cases. But it's impossible to tell in pregnancy whether your DS child will be mildly affected or not, and so the choice has to be with the mother as to whether she wants to take that chance.

Nobody is taking this lightly - pro choice does not mean trivialising abortion.

Its distressing, but the alternative is to put the fetus through the stress of a vaginal birth, followed by a nasty death. We're talking about severe birth defects which are incompatible with life. I don't think medical staff or parents should be forced to deal with that. I'm not going to judge them, its an awful situation to be in.

I'm also relieved by the court's decision.
It's a terrible decision for a mother to have to take, but she must have the right to make her choice for her and her family.

I also don't believe that the people behind Heidi are really campaigning about the very small number of late terminations that take place. They aim to remove the right to choose from women completely.

I do not for one minute think that young women enter into this tragic decision lightly.

I worked in what was special education in my early life before changing careers, and am absolutely aware of the implication of caring for such children, particularly where the quality of the child’s life is very poor or non-existent.

However, I think that my problem is personal, and something that I must work through.

I agree @Ch3wylemon . They want to remove the right to abortion fir every child with DS.

whitewave The kind of catastrophic birth defects we are talking about are worse than that. Don't think of those children in this context.
As you are feeling fragile and don't seem to be familiar with the issue, I don't recommend you google it.

@whitewave you are allowed to be sad about the way things are. I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't love to see a world where birth defects didn't happen, where unwanted pregnancies didn't happen and where every child born was loved and wanted.

It's just that legislating against abortion doesn't bring that world any closer. At least you aren't out there shoulder to shoulder with Heidi Crowter, chipping away at the right to safe, legal abortion in the UK - because that is what she and her people are after.

Thank you for your gentle explanations folk.

No! I absolutely believe in choice, - remember I am a child of the 60s - and have watched how women have progressed over the decades. In fits and starts- with more to do.

But coming to terms with the whole process is so difficult. I feel ashamed that I have been (lucky enough) unaware of what happens, now I know, and my support for choice has not changed. It is just………

I feel sad for Heidi, because I feel she is being manipulated. She seems unable to recognise mothers may not want to give birth to and raise a foetus with potentially catastrophic disability. Instead she's taking it very personally and saying society doesn't value her.
I don't think she's getting good support from those around her to put this into context.

@whitewave if you come in with an open and questioning mind, decent people will provide you with information. It's brave to step into this thread because it has been decidedly heated at times. But as far as I'm concerned you're one of the good guys.