Late term abortion, high court

[Anycrispsleft]

I saw this on the BBC this morning - it's High Court review of the rules on late term abortions. The campaigners are seeking to remove the exception to the ban on post 24 week abortion that allows it in the case of "non-lethal" disabilities. The woman who is asking for the review wants the law to be changed on the grounds that it's discrimination against disabled people.

Apologies if this case has been covered before, I'm a newcomer to FWR having been radicalised by you people on Twitter. I just wanted to express this thought that occurred to me: the trans debate has shown me that whatever good-thinking progressives think, rights are sometimes like pie, in that giving one person more rights can mean less rights for someone else. And this is also like that, isn't it? There's a balancing of the rights of the foetus (not that a foetus has legal rights, at least not yet) and the rights of the mother. Until now I used to sort of shy away from this bit of the ethics of abortion. I am very strongly pro choice, but I always wanted to be able to justify that stance in a sort of objective way, considering the cases of the foetus and the mother as though I had no skin in the game. And I realised I can't actually do that, because I do have skin in the game, because I am a woman, I have two girls, and I want all of us to have control over our own bodies. It's not that I think I am objectively right. I want to win this. I don't care about the rights and wrongs from an academic point of view. I don't want my children to have to carry a child they don't want to term. Full stop. I'm sure others would be able to put this in a much more eloquent way but I feel like I've reached a new point in my feminism and I wanted to share it. I'm not neutral. I'm team woman.

'Europe as opposed to the UK (since UK is not part of Europe in any meaningful sense anymore).'

Yesssss which is why I asked how you are defining Europe.

The idea we're not in Europe in any meaningful way any more is... Interesting.

Referring to the UK as being part of western Europe is not... Right? Or something?

You hold the view that being a member of the EU is the most important thing so...

Serbia is not in Europe.

What about those with deals that aren't full membership? Is Switzerland in Europe?

I'm surprised that the geographical location is irrelevant. What about all the history? Are we in or out of European history?

Fascinating stuff!

If it's the EU members that's key.

Why have you only picked 3?

Surely Poland are more of an outlier than the UK?

'A controversial near-total ban on abortion in Poland has taken effect, the government announced, with enforcement from midnight on Wednesday.

A court ruling allowing the prohibition prompted huge protests when it was issued in October.

Abortion is now allowed only in cases of rape or incest or when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother.

The majority of Poles oppose a stricter ban and demonstrations took place in Polish cities on Wednesday evening.'

@Lonel

Agreed. I tend to skim over any post which talks about "what happens in Europe" as it is obvious that the poster doesn't know what they are talking about.

It's ok it's been explained.

When Europe is mentioned it generally means members of the EU.

And when looking at countries in the EU there's only 3 that matter really...

I read your article.

It's interesting but has many items I would take issue with.

The biggest thing missing is religion.

I find the the comment that China has liberal abortion laws because of overpopulation extremely crass. As an aside.

@NiceGerbil

I’m neither British nor European. But Britain seems to me very different than continental Europe, no?

But define yourself as you will.

I just wanted to point out that many European countries set the limit for elective abortions of healthy fetuses at 12 weeks, including the big three of continental Europe. And I linked to an article as to why they typically set it (to British ears) at a much earlier point.

I think it’s an interesting divide and relevant to the thread.

I find the the comment that China has liberal abortion laws because of overpopulation extremely crass. As an aside

Why? This is absolutely the reason. I used to live in China and though a lot of people thought it was morally repugnant, they still believed it was essential due to overpopulation.

I really can’t disagree with that perspective, but the stories of forced abortions are horrific all the same. But that’s another thread on it’s own.

I'm interested in why as a person who is neither European nor British, you believe you know more about our relationship with Europe than those who live there?

To the point of stating which definition of Europe is the most important one, deciding which European countries are the only ones that really matter...

Forced abortion is not a 'story'. And you posted the article so I think it's reasonable to comment on it.

Anyway. The article totally misses the history, the impact of religion etc of abortion in... Whatever countries you pick. It fails in some very basic understanding.

I'm interested in why you are on a site that is based in the UK, posting about Europe as if you are an authority. And that people who live here could 'learn something'.

I'm interested in why as a person who is neither European nor British, you believe you know more about our relationship with Europe than those who live there?

Wow, have you not considered that I’m an immigrant?

To the point of stating which definition of Europe is the most important one, deciding which European countries are the only ones that really matter

You’ll find that the twelve-week generalisation is common throughout ‘Europe’ (however you define it) so why not highlight that this is the case in the biggest three along with many others?

I’d be interested to hear what you think the impact of religion is?

12 weeks is a very harsh cutoff, surely, for young girls who may not yet have settled into regular periods.

At 19/20, I often missed periods fit up to six months (or had weeks of bleeding back to back). I wouldn’t have suspected a pregnancy in time for a 12 week limit.

@IsItShining

12 weeks is a very harsh cutoff, surely, for young girls who may not yet have settled into regular periods.

At 19/20, I often missed periods fit up to six months (or had weeks of bleeding back to back). I wouldn’t have suspected a pregnancy in time for a 12 week limit.

It's an arbitrary number though isn't it. Why is it OK up to 12, but not ok after?

(I'm early as possible as late as necessary)

Lonel Pity you might learn something
Yes, I've learnt what I suspected. You're making generalizations and don't actually much about the subject.

Apologies, in context when you said that I thought you were indicating that you weren't in Europe as in the region. I read it that you were speaking from elsewhere rather than a resident.

You're interested to know what the impact of religion is on abortion laws in countries in Europe?

Seriously? You can't mean that?!

@IsItShining

12 weeks is a very harsh cutoff, surely, for young girls who may not yet have settled into regular periods.

At 19/20, I often missed periods fit up to six months (or had weeks of bleeding back to back). I wouldn’t have suspected a pregnancy in time for a 12 week limit.

The vast majority of terminations are done in the first trimester, even among teenagers (stats from US, which has access problem not found as much in Europe):

www.plannedparenthood.org/uploads/filer_public/99/41/9941f2a9-7738-4a8b-95f6-5680e59a45ac/pp_abortion_after_the_first_trimester.pdf

That said, you are correct that very young teens (12/13 years) do not recognise pregnancy as well as adults, I’m not sure how these countries manage those. But then again, many of these could go unrecognised after 24 weeks as well.

I’m wondering if there’s reduced stigma for seeking an abortion so even younger teens can usually make the 12-week cutoff?

Would love to hear from those who live in France/Germany to give a local perspective...

'That said, you are correct that very young teens (12/13 years) do not recognise pregnancy as well as adults, '

We're onto CSA etc now are we?

'At 19/20, I often missed periods fit up to six months (or had weeks of bleeding back to back). I wouldn’t have suspected a pregnancy in time for a 12 week limit.'

19yo is one thing... 12 or 13? Totally different.

'I’m wondering if there’s reduced stigma for seeking an abortion so even younger teens can usually make the 12-week cutoff?

Would love to hear from those who live in France/Germany to give a local perspective...'

Make the cut-off? At 12?

You think that people in France Germany are kind of cool with that? Does 'reduced stigma' help?

The stigma of having an abortion or the stigma of being pregnant at 12?!

Just. What?

@NiceGerbil

'That said, you are correct that very young teens (12/13 years) do not recognise pregnancy as well as adults, '

We're onto CSA etc now are we?

'At 19/20, I often missed periods fit up to six months (or had weeks of bleeding back to back). I wouldn’t have suspected a pregnancy in time for a 12 week limit.'

19yo is one thing... 12 or 13? Totally different.

'I’m wondering if there’s reduced stigma for seeking an abortion so even younger teens can usually make the 12-week cutoff?

Would love to hear from those who live in France/Germany to give a local perspective...'

Make the cut-off? At 12?

You think that people in France Germany are kind of cool with that? Does 'reduced stigma' help?

The stigma of having an abortion or the stigma of being pregnant at 12?!

Just. What?

They still need to be able to access abortion care, do they not?

If you read the linked fact sheet:

• Among women under age 15, one in five abortions is performed after 13 weeks’ gestation. Twelve percent of teens aged 15 to 19 obtained an abortion after 13 weeks’ gestation (CDC, 2014).

• The very youngest women — those under age 15 — are more likely than others to obtain abortions at 21

So yeah, I’m wondering how these are handled when terminations are not allowed after the first trimester.

The main problem in Italy is finding someone who will actually perform an abortion. In theory, it is available. In practice, in a lot of areas every gynaecologist is a conscientious objector and it is impossible to access unless you can afford private care.

Under 15s are not women.

A pregnant 12 year old needs way more than just being able to go and get an abortion because there's reduced 'stigma'.

I'm still a bit taken aback about a poster talking about 19yo being responded to as if a 12yo is comparable.

Have you looked into why religion has impact on abortion laws around Europe yet?

If you need to ask what they are then combined with the earlier posts I agree with lonel that you don't seem to be well informed at all.

Which would be fine if course except you're telling other posters they might learn something from you, and what you say is presented as fact while giving misinformation, not defining anything, not seeming to have any idea about the massive impact of religion across Europe on attitudes and laws. Which is a massive topic and one key to understanding the history and evolution of different societies around a host of major topics.

Lonel I know Italy has a low birth rate, do women travel?

My understanding is that their sex offence stats are high and reporting is very low so something must be going on to enable women to access terminations. Could be wrong obv but interested if you know the answer.

Lonel I know Italy has a low birth rate, do women travel?
To access abortions? Yes - both within Italy and abroad. Although during Covid the latter has become impossible. This article is a good overview. The far right is all about controlling women under the guise of family values but it's also about corruption. A few years back there was a big scandal when it was revealed that a lot of the so-called conscientious objectors for religious reasons were actually just refusing to perform abortions on the national health service - for a backhander they were more than willing! The trouble is that in some regions there are so few doctors willing to perform abortions that they end up doing ONLY that which is very stressful and not what the law intended when it was decided that it was possible to opt out. And of course women suffer as not everyone can afford or is able to travel elsewhere.

edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/05/europe/italy-abortion-intl/

Thank you lonel that was very interesting.

I don't know what to say. The bit about suspecting the doctor delayed diagnosis until after the limit. I've heard of that in other countries I think.

I’ve read this thread with interest. I’m not sure yet what my opinion is. I support choice up to the current limit as beyond the current limit for some situations (many have been mentioned here).

The thought of a very late term abortion of a healthy foetus doesn’t sit well with me….but neither does forcing a woman to remain pregnant. Feels like a situation with no good option.

One question that has come up for me in relation to late term abortion of healthy featuses would be if early delivery of the baby (I guess maybe by c section or induction) would be considered as well as/instead of abortion.

In the UK currently it's never choice in theory.

Up to the 24 weeks it's for medical reasons physical MH etc. Needs to be signed off by 2 docs otherwise a criminal offence.
After that only for certain disabilities, non viable foetus, mothers health.

In practice i think you can get one during the first bit if you ask but it's not the law.

There have been a few cases etc brought by disability rights campaigners due to 2 (that I know of being raised) disabilities that have a very large range of outcomes- cleft lip/ palette and down's syndrome. The fact they can be reasons for later abortions is seen as disablist and I can see their point.