5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
  

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
  

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
  

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat.
Just be patient & you'll break through.
However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
  

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight.
Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
================

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Iamblossom]

Fionne yes indeed sounds like you have been through it this week!

I hate MRIs too.

Can see this being a slow slog this time around. Am a pound up from my post fd weight on Tuesday after my fd yesterday which is a bit

Have reduced my tdee to 1500.

Have had a delicious nfd breakfast of one slice of brown toast with a hard boiled egg and tomatoes.

[slinkyme]

Morning all FD here. Fionne wow what an experience. I didn't even know there were open MRIs or sitting MRIs.

So found only some measurements but quite old and not sure using them as a baseline is going to work. So measured everything last night waist, stomach, hips, calf, thigh and arm and will see how these change but only check every month or so. Good luck to fasters today. Will try to keep myself busy

[quackingduck222]

Fionne what a horrible experience.

And your not a fraud doing 800 silly. I caught up with that diet secrets program last last where the lady trying it was doing 5:2 on 800 cals.

Good luck today you and bug on you ur FD.

I’ve been in a foul mood the last two days really bad headaches and feeling just in a bit of a slump. Will push myself to do some exercise today.

[Butteredparsn1ps]

Morning all! FD here today. Thank You for the marmite tip. I might try a marmalade drink and see if it helps.

Did anyone watch Trust Me I'm a Dr last night? I was interested in the suggestion, that contrary to the usual advice that it is better to eat carbs earlier in the day, the reverse may be true (though more research needed)?

It resonated with me, as I've always found that eating carbs makes me hungry, so I prefer to save them until later in the day - especially on fast days.

[MightyMunki]

So I finally cracked and weighed myself as I’ve been feeling really bad about the cake filled birthday weekend. I started this jan 3rd and this is my third week. I am 2.1kg down. Very motivating! Hopefully it will spur me on through the last FD of the week today.

[snailhunter]

Blimey, last night was awful. The wind was so loud: kept me awake for ages. Big work day today so am glad it's an NFD as I am shattered. Cheers loads for the headache tip - have second FD planned for tomorrow so will pick up some Marmite today! (relied on good old fashioned painkillers last night which seemed to do the trick.)

[BigChocFrenzy]

DrWhy Do prioritise NO snacking, because even "healthy" snacks like apple keep insulin raised and hinder fat-burning.
Avoid fruit on its own - without protein/ fat to buffer it, fruit is too high GI which spikes insulin and makes you hungry sooner.

A latte counts as a snack, so if you want one, have it with lunch
Have a later lunch that is substantial, a good plate of protein, veg and some good quality carbs, no sweet junk - have your apple for dessert
Practice "I don't like eating so early" if your friends ask why you are staying behind - maybe go for a brisk walk while they go out

That sounds so scary, Fionne

5:2 BSD has 800 FDs as standard, because you are low carbing daily, while those on standard 5:2 have "normal" food 5 days per week.
So you are doing something extra, which more than compensates for the higher FD allowance

Exercise: After your doctor's advice, I recommend:

• go swimming - but not breast stroke because that could worsen neck problems.
  Backstroke would be great, or if the pool is too crowded, them crawl
  
• add spin classes, because these are very easy on the joints and back, but good for fat-burning and improving fitness.
  
• You might enjoy Zumba too.
  
  parsnips As posted upthread, Mosely said it was interesting, but a v small study, so he was waiting for a larger study.
  It may well be that different times suit different folk
  The main take is to have starchy carbs at only one meal per day, so your body has the rest of the 24-hr period without them

[Carfish]

Fionne - you have my total sympathy. I'm quite claustrophobic myself and that sounds nightmarish.

FD for me today. No work today so will try to keep busy with housework etc. Deep joy .

[Motheroffourdragons]

FD here today - hungry already!
I like the marmite tip - I feel as if something is missing, and it might be the salt!
Fionne that sounds horrendous!
I am quite pleased as I have now lost 4lbs.
I have been very strict this week and no alcohol, which I think is making the difference. I think the trick is to keep busy, which is quite hard for me as I stay at home (due to having relocated with my husband's job) and have a lot of opportunities to have lunch/tea and cake with folk like me!.
I am trying hard to keep a low profile

[Bestbees]

Fionne how awful. Be glad it is over but also that you now know what us wrong and can move forwards.

Very easy FD yesterday. NFD here which i find harder. Have downloadwd mfp as i need it!

I worked out my tdee as 1800ish based on low activity. I do exercise each day from 1/2 hour yoga to running/swimming and combinations. Should i go up a level?

I am thinking of keeping around 1500 on week day NFD and being more relaxed at weekends. Does that sound sensible?

[Iamblossom]

Sounds similar to me bestbees - although I don't manage to exercise everyday.

Good idea to do 1500 weekday nfds so you have some wriggle room I am going to try that too...

I don't want to feel permanently deprived though, particularly if I don't see any results!!

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

Hello all - I joined on the original thread (under a different user name), I've got no idea how long ago that was (4 years?) so I've been doing 5:2 for that length of time, basically since the first Horizon programme.

I do a Tuesday and Thursday, mainly because Mondays are hard enough as it is - plus we always have leftovers from Sunday and I do enjoy a bubble and squeak.

On fast days I tend to eat exactly the same food so I don't even have to think about it. So that would be:

breakfast - an orange
lunch - 5 nuts
dinner - an omelette or a baked salmon fillet

plus lots of black coffee in the morning and water in the afternoon.

I am pretty bad at vegetables on FDs but make up for it during the rest of the week so not too concerned about overall nutritional levels.

I've never weighed myself (no scales in the house) but I'm 5'5" and at my heaviest was a large size 14. I'm a stable 10 now and no real desire to go any lower as I'm 47 and keen to retain a bit of body fat to keep my skin plump and the wrinkles at bay!

I don't really find FDs that hard but I do dream about toast with butter for my breakfast the next day when I'm in bed - and tend to wake up earlier on Tuesday and Thursdays so I can get downstairs as soon as possible!

I wish people would not refer to 5:2 as a fad diet as it's really not, it's a healthy lifestyle choice.

Bit of a long post - sorry!

[Iamblossom]

Well done Murky

[Iamblossom]

sorry I mean Mighty !!!

[MightyMunki]

Thanks lamb, it’s made me feel much more positive.

And thank you Rebecca for the insights. I would consider myself a chubby 14/16 and have struggled to get healthier, so it’s good to hear that this is sustainable.

I lost a bunch of weight on lighter life but I really struggled to keep it off once I was back on real food, ended up putting it all back onto. What draws me to this is that there aren’t any special things to buy, from all the long term posters advice it really does seem like a way of life rather than a quick fix.

[slinkyme]

Rebecca it's really good to hear this. It's always inspirational to hear the stories from long term maintainers. I fully agree that this is a way of life. Can I ask do you also exercise?

Reason I ask is because I exercised for the first time today on a FD. Did the beginner HIIT workout by the Body Coach. To say that it was painful is an understatement. I scraped through to the end just about before Body Coach says there is an advanced workout for those that found it easy. I think I am a long way off from that.

Am also trying almond milk in my coffee today rather than regular milk. Is quite nice in coffee and much lower calories.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Rachel Great to hear from a fellow maintainer and very encouraging for newbies
I've been 5:2 ing since late 2013. It's now my lifetime WOL.

5:2 / IF is backed by research & human studies wrt health benefits, e.g. T2, asthma, PCOS and lowering risk of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's
I'm a STEM Phd, so I'm used to evaluating research
You can direct anyone claiming "fad" to the Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health, which has many links to peer-reviewed research
However, that sort are usually neither prepared nor qualified to actually read the science.

[BigChocFrenzy]

The links are at the end of the OP.

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

Hi slinky - couldn't agree more that it is a totally sustainable lifestyle choice and if you are in the mindset it's actually quite enjoyable. I really like the 'empty' feeling I get around mid-morning as I can imagine that's when the fat starts burning off!

Exercise-wise I walk at least an hour a day with my dogs (rough country walking rather than sedate stroll on the pavements!). Plus I do 3 hours of ballet a week - and if you can take up an adult class I would really recommend it as the barre work tones the body and the dancing is a great cardiac workout!!

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

Hello mighty - your size sounds very much like mine was. Would I be right in thinking that you don't actually look overweight but can feel it yourself?

I think that your size is a great place to start from - you probably don't need to lose huge amounts to really start seeing a difference. And what a great feeling when you suddenly realise not only are your current clothes too big for you but you've actually gone down a full dress size. At a 14/16 you could easily be in 12/14s - how lovely to buy something with a 12 on the tag and be able to slip it on!! That will soon be you!!

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

and hello Choc I have lurked and read your posts over the years!

I think I might save the links to my pc so I can drop them in whenever I see a thread saying 5:2 is a fad and recommending SW instead.

A close family member despite all evidence goes on those horrible Lighter Life things as a crash - loses it and then puts it all back on again as soon as she stops. It's relentless and she can never be happy because she's either starving hungry or feeling overweight - she has no in between. But she's convinced it's me who is on a fad diet !

[BigChocFrenzy]

slinky most people who exercised before 5:2 find they can train on FDs
I train intensively without problems
Some strength athletes regularly train fasted, because it boosts their performance and their lean muscle.

Your glycogen stores will be low on FDs and the morning after.
So your body may need time to adapt before you can train as normal then.
HIIT or lifting are good FD choices, because they access bodyfat for fuel more easily than running, which tends to use more glycogen.

I suggest to start, you don't exceeding one hour total on an FD and don't try for a pb atm.
If you run on FDs, I suggest including sprint intervals and keep the total run time to 20 mins until you are used to fasting -

Have you done this beginner HIIT before ?
It might be best to get used to fasting for 2-3 weeks before you try more strenuous exercise on FDs than pre-5:2

You could take a relaxing walk on FDs until then.
Or just do a much shorter blast, either 20 mins or so, like Shred, or the 2-5 minute Fat Blasts in the OP on the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33*

[MightyMunki]

Pretty spot on Rebecca, I tend to put on weight everywhere so it’s all spread out, I don’t look overly overweight but I definitely feel it.

[BigChocFrenzy]

rebecca Longterm stable weight maintenance shows 5:2 is a healthy WOL for you

A cycle of binge/starve with commercial Frankenfoods is setting up your friend for chronic health problems and maybe an ED.

Unfortunately, some people will ignore all the scientific evidence from the last several years,
because they prefer to believe businesses who make money from ripping them off and keeping them fat.

Then Big Pharma make big money by selling meds to correct the resulting health problems.
Then more money from drugs to control the side effects

Big Food & Big Pharma HATE 5:2 and Intermittent Fasting because they can't make money out of it
No snacks, no special products, no magic potions.

[slinkyme]

Thanks BCF for great advice as always. I really haven't been doing exercise at all for years or ever really so am really unfit. Something I want to address this year and going forwards. Rest of the family are very active. Haven't done the HIIT video before but my DC do it.

I agree I may start with gentle walking initially and do the 3-5 Min HIIT burst. I have been lurking on the exercise thread and once I have caught up and once I get the courage I will post on there. Baby steps for me. Thank you for the support.