5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
  

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
  

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
  

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat.
Just be patient & you'll break through.
However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
  

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight.
Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
================

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Iamblossom]

No idea why today has been sooooo much easier than Monday...

[Butteredparsn1ps]

Wanted to say thank you for the links too - it's really handy having them all in one place.

[CastielIsMyAngel]

Really want to do 5:2... I've had aneamia problems, my ferritin is 16, I'm on B12 and iron but not sure yet until next blood test if my body is absorbing it (last visit to see nuse last month she said the state of my red blood cells are shocking). Will I be ok doing 5:2? Because in all honesty, I don't have that great a diet as it is

[snailhunter]

I am now closing the kitchen on 448 calories, hooray. Lunch: half a tin of tuna with massive pile of leaves. Dinner: two-egg mushroom omelette with massive pile of leaves and half an avocado. Feel a bit headachey but prob because it's been a stressful day and I may not have drunk enough. Going to sit down with another ginger tea very soon - really pleased with how my first ever FD has gone. Hello buttered, hope it goes well for you again.

[cajo]

Well done snailhunter - that's a great achievement, hope your headache goes soon. I've shut my kitchen at 547 - all the fault of the nutella!

[MightyMunki]

Well done snail, I may copy your meals for my FD tomorrow! Although I might ditch the avocado so I can have my tea.

[Butteredparsn1ps]

Well done both of you. I found mushroom omelettes were a staple food last time!!!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome snail and well done on an excellent 1st FD

cajo Just carry on, but in future leave the DC's food alone on FDs -these are adult days
Just add on the calories
1level teasp has 25 cals and 3g sugar
If it was nearer a tbsp, that has 100 cals and 11g sugar

• it is very high sugar for an FD, so let's hope it doesn't set off cravings or hunger later in the evening.

Welcome back, parsn1ps and good to hear you find the links useful
You know the routine that works best for you
This time when you get near goal, you can decide on a maintenance plan
most people need a plan, especially woman 40+ < hormones are a bugger >

[CastielIsMyAngel]

1level teasp has 25 cals and 3g sugar
If it was nearer a tbsp, that has 100 cals and 11g sugar

A tablespoon is 3x a teaspoon. 5ml and 15 ml. So if a teaspoon was 25 cals would a tablespoon not be 75 cals? Not 4x the calories.

[CastielIsMyAngel]

P.s thanks for the helpful replies

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sorry, CastiellsAngel but if you have anaemia, you must ^ ask your doctor before doing any kind of Intermittent Fasting^

Since your body is not absorbing iron or B12 properly, you might be among the few people who - despite needing to lose weight, also need to eat frequently every day, even to snack.

You could ask about doing 5:2 and also daily 16:8 or 14:10, i.e. only eating within an 8 or 10 hour window each day.
However, your doc may say concentrate on getting healthy first, then sort out the weight.

If you get the all-clear from your doc, then of course you'd be very welcome to join us.
Until then,
Suggestions to improve your diet

Iron-rich foods:
. Meat & fish are the most easily absorbed sources.
. Eggs are quite good for iron too.
. Vegetarian: spinach, peanut butter, beans especially soy / kidney beans / chick peas, nuts, sesame seeds, broccoli, baked potato

Important
To absorb iron from veggie sources, you need Vit C accompaniments.
Particularly good for anaemia:
apple, tomatoes, pomegranates, peaches, dates, dried apricots, bell peppers.

Tips
. Add a few almonds / walnuts / sesame seeds to yoghurt for more iron
. Add tomatoes to egg for Vit C / iron absorption
. Try a Moroccan tagine with lamb, chick peas and apricots

Warning re Running
If you run, I suggest you stop and swap to cycling / walking / spin class etc
Women runners who do a lot of mileage, especially at a fast pace, are often low on iron

2 main reasons running can cause / worsen low iron:

• caecal slap syndrome (the walls of the gut slap together while you’re running, causing small amounts of blood loss)
  
• foot-strike haemolysis (red blood cells travelling through vessels on the soles of the foot get squashed with each foot strike)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Castiell I did wonder about teasp /tbsp discrepancy when I checked online, but both stats came from the same source.
This is why I thought the teasp might be level and the tbsp rounded !

All values online though are estimates, hence when we think we have consumed 500 cals, it is in reality probably 500 +/-50, i.e. 450-550

[Iamblossom]

Kitchen closed on 506.

Super proud of myself.

Just now need to not undo all my good work before weigh in on Monday.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Thanks for the interesting Mosely link about carbs, bug

The study was very small and limited, so until there are more extensive studies, then as Mosely writes, the main thing to remember when trying to lose weight is not to overload carbs every meal

He also says there may be benefits for going low carb most of the day, to give a long period without.
So that could mean eating starchy carbs only mornings, or only evenings, but not for the other meals

btw, a sensible carb portion for most of us is usually defined as 80-100g cooked weight, or 2 slices of
bread
If you exercise strenuously, especially for 90mins +, you may need more carbs those days.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done on your FD, blossom
That's right, try to stay focused Fri-Sun, especially staying within nhs alcohol guidelines.

[HLBug]

For those asking (this thread has moved too fast for me today to remember who!) Trust Me I'm a Doctor is BBC2 tonight at 8.30pm and yes, our good friend and illustrious leader (after BCF and TiP obvs) Dr Mosley, presents each episode.

Hello to all the newbies and returners that have joined over the last few days - this thread is a great source of support and knowledge so I'm sure you'll do brilliantly. If you haven't already, track down and watch the original Horizon documentary (Eat, Fast and Live Longer) which is available in the UK on the BBC IPlayer - it's a great introduction to IF but also a good reminder to those who have been involved in this WOL for a while.

Well done to those who have fasted today, and congratulations to those who are now done for the week! I've got a shitty cold so have had a comfort eating day (but still within TDEE). Silly winter bugs seem to be affecting a few of us at the moment so and for those in need.

FD for me tomorrow - anyone care to join me?

[BigChocFrenzy]

Get well soon, bug and anyone else with a winter lurgie

[BigChocFrenzy]

Link to the original Horizon 5:2 doc is about line 2 of the OP - worth watching
Shows Mosely was originally focused on improving his health / T2; weight loss was a happy bonus for him

[snailhunter]

Wow, well done all the fasters today! Yes mightymunki I was surprised at how many calories an avocado has. But I looooove avocados and needed something else in my leaf-pile.

[cajo]

Thanks BCF - it was closer to a teaspoon so hopefully not much harm done! Well done everyone else fasting today and good luck if you're planning one for tomorrow.

[MightyMunki]

Joining you tomorrow Bug.

[BigChocFrenzy]

snail and any other fasting newbies:

tip to Avoid headaches on an FD:
Glug a teasp of Marmite (it's only 10 cal), say mid-morning and mid-afternoon
This replenishes salt & other minerals - until your body adapts to fasting, the low food volume probably won't supply as much salt as you are used to.
Marmite also boost B vits, so win-win

It also helps to boost lean protein while you are getting used to FDs

[DrWhy]

Thanks BCF, I need to stop using sugar to substitute for sleep - I barely drink caffeine so goodness knows what I will use! I think a lot of it is habit though and I do need to break that. During the week we have a great canteen and coffee shop and most of my colleagues come in earlier than me and leave earlier so we all have lunch really early and I’m tempted by a snack in the middle of the afternoon - going to try to make it an apple or similar instead of chocolate cake at least!

[Fionne]

Good Morning everyone.

I was away from home for a few days seeing a Dr and managed really well (food wise) apart from getting stuck in an open MRI machine when my tummy touched the ceiling of it and I thought I was being entombed. The radiographer knew I'd travelled an hour or so by air from home specifically to use an open MRI machine due to being claustrophobic about the traditional ones and you'd have thought that when my nose almost touched the ceiling of the open one he was putting me in he'd have thought oh, I better not put the rest of her in! But no, he didn't, and me being me I didn't realise that Id have to go all the way in even though it was just my cervical spine being checked so I didn't query it and I lay down thinking it would just be my head in it. Well the shock when I slid all the way in and my tummy touched the top of it was horrendous and I started to try to push/slide myself out. It was like scrabbling at the lid of a coffin and I was going no where fast till the radiographer pressed on my tummy with his hand and out I slid. It was awful and I think what shocked me was I'd had an open MRI on my shoulder at another clinic a few weeks earlier and it was nothing like this one - it was more open.

Thankfully though I then went back to the Dr who rang around and found me something called an upright MRI to go to. It was great. Its a machine with just two sides to it and a stretcher in the middle that can be also be adjusted to use as a chair so I wasn't even lying down, I was just lying back a bit. Amongst other things its advertised as being good for patients who are obese! Its a lesson learned and If I hadn't been trying to improve on my health before I went by losing weight I'd certainly being doing it now. I mean who the hell wants to be the woman who got stuck in an MRI machine because she felt she was being buried alive let alone be the woman who all the other people in the clinic thought got stuck because she was fat.

No blooming wonder you don't pay for the MRI till you've had it or they spend all their time on their wee machines refunding banking transactions. They'd never get anything else done.

Anyway Ive now been stopped from doing my crossfit and my olympic lifting because of what they found in my neck - 3 slipped discs and stage 3 arthritis. It would only aggravate things so now Im having to find something else to do exercise wise and I'm dissapointed because I love my Crossfit and my weight lifting. I did have a treatment done though that was very interesting. I had blood removed and they whizzed it up in a machine to separate the plasma from the rest of it and when they had done that they then injected it into the vertebrae in my neck. Its called Protein Rich Plasma therapy (PRP) and Ive to have weekly injections for 5 weeks. Im giving it a go whilst not expecting miracles. I didn't actually feel the procedure due to the local anaesthetic, and it was all over in a couple of minutes, but for the rest of the day I was very sore - I can quite honestly say I was a pain in my own neck

Its a FD here today and Im very busy so it should be ok even though I do feel like a fraud on 800 calories when everyone else is doing 500.

[HLBug]

Fionne that sounds like quite an adventure! How is your neck feeling today? I see a physio about neck / shoulder pain so I can sympathise. I'm sorry to hear about the arthritis, that must've been a shock.