5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Here's my loss graph if it helps anyone so the blue is my weight every day, the yellow is the trend

That sounds a tough situation, Persis but we’re all here, rooting for you
Moving countries is stressful enough, but at least it usually comes with more money and a better standard of living.
Really important compensation if you had to give up your own job / career.

My advice:

• Check / discuss if you are getting your fair share of spending money and free time
  Being short of money, worrying about pension etc is depressing & sucks, makes everything more of a struggle.

• NO snacking ever on NFDs and FDs
  Even healthy snacks keep insulin raised, hinder fat furning and increase hunger earlier. Have them as a meal course instead
  Even worse: increasing the number of “eating occasions” tends to increase insulin resistance, which accelerates weight gain and hinders weight loss.
  So, eat 2-3 times per day, 4 times if you need it, no more.
  Always have protein or fat with a meal, not carbs or fruit / veg on their own.

Do not think so little of yourself that you eat the DC leftovers – you deserve much better
Chant: I am NOT the family rubbish bin

• Do 5:2.
  Choose 2 days, plan & prepare your suppers and fast on water until then, like you did before

• Boost non-starchy veg. Salads are great, raw veg with all their enzymes, dressed with vinegar & olive oil to stabilise insulin levels.
  Avoid bought sauces like mayo etc because of added sugar and junk.

• Sugar is the #1 fattener, with wheat at #2
  Cut right back on sugary junk even homemade – sweets, cake, biscuits – and cut back on low nutrition carbs / wheat – pizza, crisps, deep-fried or battered food
  So for starchy carbs have potatoes, sweet pots, rice especially brown rice, rather than bread or pasta.
  If you want bread, have 1-2 slices of 100% wholegrain rye bread, or bake your own with almond / coconut flour, no wheat

• Boost protein. Tinned fish (in brine not oil) is cheap & nourishing, eggs, cheese (not the processed kind in tubes or strings), whatever meat or poultry you like except the processed kind.
  Veggie sources: peas, all kinds of beans (tinned in water not sauce), lentils

• Boost healthy fat – full fat natural yoghurt, extra virgin olive oil, butter, ordinary fat in meat & fish, lard, coconut oil.
  Portion out unflavoured nuts, 30g per day is sensible.
  NOT margerine, vegetable oil, canola oil, soybean oil etc

That's v useful, Ollivander and typcial zig-zag form, with overall downward trend

Hi, I've just started IF and have been reading this thread for inspiration and motivation! At the mo, my stats are:
Height: 5ft 5
Weight: 10st 6lbs
BMI: 24
Target: 9st 6lbs

I am not terribly overweight but half put a half stone on over summer and my clothes feel tight. I turn 40 next year and want to use that as a target so I can look forward to feeling fit and healthy. I do 5/6 exercise classes a week (mixture of pump/attack and yoga). Did my first fast day on Friday - felt fine until dinner time then felt really hungry. Doing my second tomorrow so going to plan my meals.
How long did it take until you started to see the weight coming off?

Had my first FD today so am placemarking to keep me motivated!

Persis you are in a really tough situation and I totally get that even though your weight gain is minimal, feeling as if you have no control of your eating can be a huge worry.

I was a fasting pro, but after having my third DC I just couldn't get back into it. Keep trying though, it will click into place.

Happy bday goldfinch! Hope you've enjoyed your special NFD.

Thank you for posting your chart Ollivander. It's really interesting! I usually lose half a pound a week on average. Slow and steady definitely wins the race!

Successful NFD today:
Lunch - mushroom omelette followed by apple/houmous,
Dinner - pasta with pesto, chicken and asparagus. I made Eve's Pudding for dessert with apples from the garden and managed to stop after one small portion. Delicious!

Had a 30 min Barre class this morning. I really did feel like one of the hippos from the old Hippo Mouse adverts! Then kettlebells tonight: double kettle bell punch pull, snatch, shoulder press, and squats with a 10kg kettlebell in each hand.

Well done to everyone who has successful fasted today!

Hi all, been laid low with a rotten cold since last Thirsday. Have still got sore throat and cough. What's the recommendation on fasting while unwell?

I hope you feel better soon, edit
When an illness does not upset your stomach, then it is entirely up to you whether you wish to fast
Sometimes when ill, you can't face food; other times you want some.

As you don't sound up to it, I suggest postponing until you are better and in the meantime
healthy TLC to support your immune system:

• Drink lots of water all day, no alcohol and preferably no fizzy crap
• 3-4 nutritious meals daily, with lots of veg, no snacks between
• A gentle 15 min daily walk if the weather is ok and you feel able.

Welcome, lisa
Rate of loss is very variable, with the longterm average at 1lb per week, initial 2 weeks usually higher
However, as you are already within healthy BMI range, you may lose more slowly
Review after 2 weeks and see if you need to tweak anything.

Your weight may naturally vary a couple of lb daily and may vary more on 5:2, with the contrast FD vs NFD
So, if you weigh daily I recommend you don't worry about daily blips
Best to monitor every 1-2 weeks, the day after FD2, naked in the morning, after loo but beforr eating or drinking anything

Hello all

I've been on this thread on and off since early 2014 and have come back to ask for some advice. First a brief(ish recap)

Successfully lost/maintained weight on 5:2 during 2014/15 then unexpectedly got pregnant again at a bit of a ripe old age. After baby was born last year, I returned to 5:2 fairly quickly and spent most of the rest of the year slowly losing, then plateaued.

In spring of this year, I decided to do BSD to kick some bad habits and lose the final few kg. Then DD1 was unexpectedly taken seriously ill and we found ourselves living in hospital for a couple of months. I was going to put BSD on hold then realised it might actually be the thing that held my health together, so went ahead with it and lost about 7kg - not huge loss but made a massive difference.

One of the effects of weight loss was smaller boobs and less fat everywhere. A lump in my breast was suddenly apparent and 6 weeks ago I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

Fast forward to now: just completed first round of chemo and it wasn't the most fun, but am mostly out the other side. Some info regarding fasting and its effect on side effects AND effectiveness of treatment has come my way, but I didn't do anything about in time for first round of chemo as mentally I was a bit shut down. I'm now interested into looking into this further but am reaching a bit of a stumbling block as there was lots about it in the media over last couple of years, but nothing specific about the what/how/when (eg how many calories constitutes a fast?). I would like to pursue it because I'm used to fasting anyway, most of it is done before the chemo starts and it won't do any harm, even if it doesn't make much difference.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post, and sorry for the long post. I'm doing ok (and DD is now too) and hope it doesn't sound like an awful sob story - I just need some pointers towards the practicals of tackling this! (and I know BigChoc is very good at looking into science-y things and is cleverer than me)

Hope everyone is having a good fasting week

Hello Eagle! What a journey! But I'm glad you're getting the treatment you need hopefully the thread will give you some friendly faces and support - I know it keeps me accountable!

Fast day yesterday for me came in at 600 cals. Still on antibiotics but much closer to my normal self. Hoping to sail past the 1 stone mark this week.

So sorry to hear you have been through this, Eagle

The end of the OP has a section “Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health** with links to peer-reviewed research.

I’ve just checked latest research specifically into fasting for cancer. Here it is:

The research to which you refer is by several scientists, but especially by Prof Valter Longo
There is some evidence that fasting enables chemo to work more effectively and also protects the neighbouring non-cancerous cells from chemo.

There have been animal tests, plus some human trials, but more trials are needed before this can be a standard protocol.

The findings were that 48-hr and 72-hr fasting prior to chemo reduced the expression of the HO-1 gene in the T regulatory cells.
This made it easier for the chemo drugs to attack the cancer.

This research team also found that 72 hours of fasting was associated with lower chemo side effects, compared with fasting for only 24 hours:

https://news.usc.edu/103972/fasting-like-diet-turns-the-immune-system-against-cancer/

More papers, plus fasting experiences from cancer sufferers

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/03/how-to-get-through-chemotherapy-decca-aitkenhead-cancer-treatment
https://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=3408

Longo recommended fasting 72 hours prior to chemo, and for 24 hours afterwards, although other researchers have varying protocols.
Also, some say only water; some say steamed green veg is ok. However, most of the research is water only, so I’d stick with that if you want maximum effect.

If you want to try fasting during a chemo cycle, please discuss first with your oncologist

If you just want to try between cycles, there is no published evidence about this.

Ideally, go to a proper fasting clinic, the most established being Buchinger-Wilhelmi, who refer to Longo’s work:
https://www.buchinger-wilhelmi.com/en/node/415*

boobz*, a 5:2 Mumsnetter, went there after breast cancer and had a very informative thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/fastingdiet/2488889-Has-anyone-been-to-a-fasting-clinic-like-Buchinger-Wilhelmi?msgid=61654803

However, if that’s too expensive, you could try either a weekly 2-day fast (consecutive is more powerful) or 2-3 day non-consecutive.
So, unlike a 5:2 FD, you would either have just water, or if you prefer, steamed green veg.
If you feel this is making you too weak, STOP

Do NOT try longer than 72 hrs without medical supervision_

On non-fasting days__ their recommendation is to eat as healthily as possible:

moderate protein not too much, moderate starches, massess of veg of all colours, 2 portions fruit daily, expecially berries.

So, minimising alcohol, sugary treats, or savory junk carb treats like commercial pizza, deep fried food.

I know the NHS etc say eat whatever crap you want, to keep up morale
However, a German friend here said his oncologists (Frankfurt) strongly recommended healthy eating.
He was also sent after chemo for 4 weeks to a Swiss Alps clinic for “detox”, which was 4 weeks of vegan VLC buffered fasting.

I hope this info is what you meant
All the best

< aplogies for App "bolding" unexpectedly >

Thanks Bigchocfrenzy! I'll do that.

I hope the antibiotics zap that tiresome infection, fire You nailed the FD pretty well

eagle FYI: all research into recovering from cancer agrees that it is important to bring down insulin levels if they are on the high side.
Insulin levels are rather more complicated than blood sugar:

Protein does not increase blood sugar, but it does increase insulin levels
So can fat
Insulin can increase independently of blood sugar, because of incretins

incretins GLP 1 and GIP are secreted by the stomach and small intestine in response to food.
Both increase insulin release by the pancreas.
Fats, amino acids and glucose - i.e. all food - all stimulate incretin release and hence raise insulin.

So, lowering insulin doesn't just mean cutting right back on added sugar and junky carbs,
but also adjusting ing the total amount of food & drink intake longterm to what your body needs.

Goodness, what a journey Eagle! Thank you for sharing with us and it's good to read that you're getting the treatment you need. BCf's advice looks to be useful as ever and we're all here to support!

Completed my first fast day.
Starting stats
5ft 4in
13st 2lb
Bmi 31.6

Well done on your 1st FD, kate
It's good to divide up your goal into smaller ones, e.g every 5kg or stone, with a major milestone if you drop into a lower BMI range.

I suggest for your 1st target / milestone:
getting below BMI 30, so you drop down into the "overweight" range.

Thanks for all the support guys....I have taken all advice to heart and am doing a PROPER FD today. Soup (in a can) for supper, water and coffee until then, and the kids are eating baked beans for supper which I LOATHE so no chance of picking. Making it as easy as I can for myself!!

Whoop whoop other Wednesday fasters....you will be just starting as I finish!!

Bigchoc thank you so much for your very informative (and easy to read for my chemo addled brain) reply!

Prof Longo is who I've come across, and your info re the periods of time is very useful. I found a lot of things when googling, but not much discussing the specifics (popular press articles aren't really interested in that side of it).

The Guardian article is particularly interesting as it was this article that was forwarded to me by a friend which started everything off and I've actually spoken briefly to the writer about it too!

I will definitely discuss with the Dr first - as much as I want ideas such as this to work, I'm also well aware that you can find anything you want to believe on the web in relation to cures!

I remember Boobz and the clinic thread very well, and actually had read it a few times way before the diagnosis. Sadly I can barely afford to pay the mortgage, let alone any extras (my bank asked me if I had life insurance when I went to see them recently to ask about a mortgage holiday due to my health )

The nausea created by the chemo reminds me of pregnancy; you just want to eat the rubbish carbs to keep it at bay. But if fasting can reduce the side effects of the chemo including the nausea, then you are in a much better position to get healthy food down you. So you are kind of fasting to allow yourself to tolerate healthy food once you get through the chemo, if that makes sense? It's a bit of a vicious circle.

And you are right re the NHS and the eat what you like message! I sat through a presentation on chemo and one slide actually said 'don't worry about low fat food' and I had to put my hand up and ask them to clarify what on earth that meant . I think in terms of diet, the NHS is like the over indulgent mother, proferring unhealthy food at every turn.

Thank you once again for structuring the information for me and hope I wasn't putting you on the spot too much. Its just so tricky to make sense of science stuff when it's relating to such an emotive subject. I will start looking for inspiring veg recipes and no more or

Keep going, Persis

Post whenever you need support or advice, Eagle
Also PM me if you prefer

Annnnnnnd it's done. Much easier. Under 500 cal (prob about 450 with milk in coffee). Had about 25l of water and feel fine. Off to bed to stop the snackies.

I just weighed myself (usually do it on Thursday mornings but was curious) and am 65.6 - down about 1kg on last week. I honestly think (although please correct me if this is nonsense!!) that this way of eating has made my body and my weight more resilient - with previous diets a bad few weeks would have sent my weight right up and here it hasn't really.

How is everyone else? Looking forward to getting to know you all! There are some VERY impressive SV and NSV here - quite inspirational! Also for eagle - that's amazing to take control of your health like that!

Aaaaand she's back !
Well done, Persis

People tend to regain due to insulin resistance, which creates a higher "set point" to which the body always tries to return

Insulin resistance is produced by prolonged high levels of insulin - and fasting is the only clinically proven way to reduce / correct this.

It is highly individual how long you need to do IF to remove nearly all insulin resistance and also afterwards how long you can maintain this healthy state without fasting.

This is why - although a few weeks off is absolutely fine - I recommend everyone has a defined maintenance plan for life, that includes fasting, usually 6:1, daily 16:8 or 14:10