5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Ricksheadtilt]

I am so pleased to have found this thread. So well laid out and enormously helpful.
I'm planning on trying 5:2. I need to meal plan for shopping etc so start next week. As a family our diet is actually pretty damn good. But since quitting smoking 5 months ago I have put a load of weight on. My downfall is eating crap during the day when everyone is at work/school. I'm most reluctant to change their diets & refuse to cook seperate meals every day so this seems like it will work for our lifestyle. FD I'm sure I could tweak my meal to beef it up for everyone else? Like adding potatoes/pasta etc to their salad.
My downfall will 100% be finding snacks. I hate fruit & have zero sweet tooth. Most snack diet foods tend to be too sweet for me even raw carrot/pepper slices!!!
On top of this I want to try to get body fitter. I have fibromyalgia so really really struggle. I have a notion though that if I fight through the pain ultimately a fitter body should be healthy enough to fight back??? (May be wishful thinking). I'm thinking of trying a couch potato to 5k type thing. I'm under no illusion or desire to necessarily reach 5k but just gradually increase until I'm at my limit?
Any way - wish me luck

[grannygrins]

Checking in again today on second FD and sending positive thoughts to everyone.

Feeling hungry, but that's okay - nothing I can't ignore now that DGD has left and been packed off with all the biscuits we made this morning!

Need to leave for craft class in half an hour and we're not allowed to eat in the workshop, so that's the next few hours of distraction sorted.

[SeaEagleFeather]

ricks I have ME and have found swimming amazing. For me, ME = serious muscle weakness and dizzy exhaustion rather than pain though. Fybromyalgia = acute pain, is that right?

The advantage of swimming is that you can do as little or much as you like, as slow or fast as you like, and it's easy on the body. I started off doing 8 laps, 200m max 4 years ago and very, very slowly built up to more, through good days and bad.

Does mean you need a not-too-expensive pool tho!

[hewl]

I feel terrible

really terrible brain fog! Have had half a pack of stir fry veg and a tiny bit of greek yogurt

urgh

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, Rickshead I'm glad you like the thread OP 
Congratulations on giving up smoking. 

On 5:2, we recommend you eat proper meals, NO SNACKING between them. Snacks, even healthy ones, keep insulin raised, hinder fat-burning and you eat more in total over the day because you feel hungrier.
On NFDs, if you want a treat like cake, crisps, alcohol, then have it as part of a meal.
On FDs, NO alcohol or sugary crap.

For family meals on FDs, you just have the protein with masses of veg, skip the starchy carbs & creamy / oily sauces
e.g. roast dinner = lean meat, extra portions of non-starchy veg & horseradish sauce for you, makes a big low cal plateful.
The rest of the family add potatoes, parsnips, yorkshires, cauli cheese, gravy
If you eat breakfast in company, then Greek yoghurt with berries or seeds is filling and looks good.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, HowardsEnd
If you are hungry on NFDs, it is probably because you are in calorie deficit for the week, which is what enables weight loss.
To reduce hunger, eat proper meals with plenty of protein, no snacks between, be sensible about junk and keep to nhs alcohol guidelines.

On 5:2, we do "buffered fasting" i.e. you don't exceed 24 hours without food. This is important for a longterm WOE, to retain muscle - and TDEE - and always have plenty of nutrients for good health.

People who do longer fasts for health reasons mainly do so only once every few months and even those should be buffered, not zero-cal.
Longer fasts should only be with medical supervision, e.g. at a specialist fasting clinic, NOT on your own.

On 5:2, aim to eat your full 500 cals (600 for your DH) on 2 non-consecutive FDs.
It is thought you maximise fasting benefits & possibly weight loss by saving nearly all these cals for supper, so you have 20-23 hours without calories after the NFD supper.
If you want 2 consecutive FDs, aim for 650 cals per day and don't try to just eat one meal - too tough. Aim for 2-4 meals each FD then.

[BigChocFrenzy]

For geeky 5:2ers, there is a section "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health" at the bottom of the OP, with peer-reviewed science papers.

Hewl I recommend you boost the protein content of your FDs. Try to make FDs low GI with protein at every meal.
Hardboiled eggs are very filling. Also try prawns or other shellfish, or tuna in your stirfry. They are v low cal, but if you have the tinned / packaged ones, make sure it is the kind without oil.

[Ricksheadtilt]

SeaEagle - yes acute pain, memory fog, and massive fatigue (usually after a bad attack). Swimming has helped in the past, but our local pool is too cold and hurts me more. Looking for a warmer one!!!

[Grifone]

Checking in to the new thread. Welcome to all the new comers. You couldn't be in a better place for help and support.

I had my two FDs earlier this week and weighed in this morning with a 1.2 kg weight loss. I have been low carbing this past week also. I also took a few measurements and have already lost 2" of my chest and st least 1" off the waist and hips. I expect the 20 minutes of Shred daily has helped with that

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on your SV and inches NSV, Grifone That's lost bodyfat

[SeaEagleFeather]

Ouch ricks, sorry to hear it :/ Hope you can find a warmer pool or something else that suits you

[BigChocFrenzy]

HowardsEnd No problem with your coffee. Unsweetened almond milk goes well with it and is amazingly low cal - < 5 cals for 25 ml - and low GI compared to cows milk.
If you don't fancy this, then before you start the FD, measure out & calorie cows milk (& sugar if you must) for the day and put them in 2 little pots.

The first couple of weeks you'll probably lose a few lb, but this initial loss would include retained water from excess carbs & salt.
If you want to continue losing weight, you need a weekly calorie deficit. Your body is not a computer - it is affected by hormonal balance, lifestyle, food type, booze, previous dieting, meds etc.
However, very roughly, to have a 1lb weekly loss longterm, most folk need about 3,000 cal weekly deficit. If you have a low TDEE, your loss will be slower. If you have a high starting bmi it will be quicker, 2-3 lb weekly or even more.

Many folk lose without any calorie counting on NFDs. However, others have got used to consuming far too much over the years.
if you find you are not losing well, then mfp for a week as a reality check on portion control and calorie bombs. Then check if you are averaging around TDEE on NFDs, which is the rough aim on 5:2 = Mosely's "eating normally"

[hewl]

all done for today. Felt really odd all day with a banging headache

1.5 litres of volvic lemon flavoured water
apple
half a pack of stir fry veg, microwaved with soy sauce
270kcal ready meal and lots of asparagus

now having a cup of tea and quite looking forward to this day being over!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done, Hewl Boost the protein next time

[bugsyburge]

Some great NSV, well done guys!!!

NFD here but I've just had sweet potato "spaghetti" with prawns, chilli, chorizo, a pepper, spinach and half a tin of tomatoes....it was delicious! And less than 350cal &'took less than 5 minutes to make!!

I'll deffo have that instead of regular spaghetti going forward. I tend to steer clear of pasta because I just don't find it filling, I can eat so much of it so I have to avoid all together. Only thing I let myself have it with is spagbol so ill deffo have sweet potato instead now!!

Nearly bedtime hewl, well done for getting through it!! Do check the sugar and calories on the volvic lemon...I don't know which one it is but DH used to guzzle a particular one and it was absolutely chocked full of sugar, I couldn't believe it!!!

[ApricotExpat]

Thank you everyone for your replies to the 16:8 question.

Failed miserably at my return to FD's. But midday it had all gone wrong.

Tomorrow's another day - I shall find more willpower by then!

[Thedeepbluesea]

FD finished at 447. And im starving! Ive already eyed up my breakfast lunch and dinner.

Cant remember who asked but i agree that summer is just as difficult as winter. Lots of nice things to have. And i am also not one of those people who gets too hit to eat. Doh that's what ice cream is for

[Clearskies99]

Stay strong Thurs fasters, brush teeth, drink water and close that kitchen door !

Welcome newcomers - this is such a good place to be, glad you've found us all

Ricks no more fags and now 5:2, well done, hope it helps you loads

Hewl you made it - yay! More protein and maybe even more water next FD ( I've probably had 3l today ) FDs get easier as you get used to them

Great SV Grif

A 4-biscuit wobble green that's pretty contained as stress wobbles go I'd say

Thanks deep am on a mission to regain health so motivation v v high. Still have my (carb-fuelled) blips though

[Thedeepbluesea]

Or hot even!

[Clearskies99]

deep plan a yummy protein rich breakfast for tomorrow and stick to it, then keep drinking water til lunch and paln that too so you know what and how much you are going to eat.

Never mind Apricot draw a line and move on. Maybe ease into FDs with more calories. As everyone on here says this is a way of life for long term and takes time to make changes to you

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done to all of us who fasted today

I find fasting much easier in summer < anarchist ! > because I adore mountains of salad, which is not so appealing in winter.
FDs with masses of raw veg are so packed with nutrients, then boost even more by adding fish.

I had zero cals until an early FD supper in my fav restaurant:
grilled wild salmon with 2 plates of mixed salad - incl amazing amount of green for so few cals - with lemon & olive oil dressing, followed at home by a low carb protein shake with Barleans Tangerine Omega Swirl. YUM.

[doineedhelp]

Your dinner sounds lovely bcf
Finished today on around 790 so more of a mini FD than FD proper...
Will try again on saturday or sunday

Painted nails and gone bed as DH munching his way through pringles, I don't like pringles so it's not that which is annoying me but his noisy munching

Good luck any fri fasters / weighers

[hewl]

Thanks all! the volvic was sugar free and 1.5 litres is about 10 calories I think!

So do you think better to eat protein earlier in the day? Maybe an egg at lunchtime?

[Clearskies99]

Yum BCF

Mini FD is still a deficit do

I have protein and veg lunch and supper for FD hewl - you feel fuller for longer with tte protein.

[Wincher]

Urgh tough FD today. I took DS2 (2.9) out for the day in London and we had a lovely time, but I walked MILES in hot sun (drank plenty of water). Then thankfully got onto a bus when I got off the tube, only to find traffic was at a standstill so had to walk instead (and get a friend to collect DS1 as I was going to be late). Then got the kids home, chucked some pasta at them, then out again(in the slow traffic) for ds1 swimming lesson. Home, tantrums, bath, bed etc before I could get my own dinner on - finally ate at about 8.30. I was so so grumpy with the kids and really struggling not to snap at them. It was so hard to get through it. There just wasn't any time before that point to eat - and by that stage it was 8 hours since my 175cal lunch.

oh well, tomorrow's another day.