5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[GrimmauldPlace]

Hi everyone, haven't been on for a while. Thought I'd lost the thread. Alas, there's a new one already. Moves fast!

Had a lovely surprise this morning after not weighing myself for a week or so. I've lost exactly a stone since 4th January when I started. The first week I lost the most (half a stone if I remember correctly) so it slowed down a lot but slow and steady wins the race.

Looking for some advice on exercise I can do with a sprained ankle. I'm struggling to stand let alone walk or run! The advice is to rest but there must be something I can do? Swimming isn't really an option as I'd only be able to go once in a week.

Also, the poster who asked about the fitbit (sorry, on phone and can't scroll back properly!) I have the charge hr and I love it. It really does motivate me to move more, DH has a fitbug and we compete with each other to see who gets the most steps in a day. I don't really pay much attention to the calorie burning part and obviously don't eat back any calories I 'earn' but it's good to be able to see when my heart rate is in exercising zones etc.

[OohMrDarcy]

Morning all,

Happy friday (at last - feels like this week has taken at least a month!) Weighed in today and another 1lb down - huzzah! That takes me to 40lb lost now which feels blinking good... it also means I've now lost 8 of these.... which is astounding really!

Well done to everyone else - this WOE really does rock!

[Elsasalterego]

Hi all, weekly weigh in has me a lb down so pleased enough at that although be feeling jealous of other greater amounts but realise that we all have different starting weights!

[boldlygoingsomewhere]

Well done, Elsa and MrD.

Has anybody read the SIRT diet book? Was reading a bit yesterday and the authors are quite dismissive of IF as a WOL. Their argument is essentially that yes there are health benefits but fasting 2 days a week is too hard for people due to feeling hungry all the time. I was so surprised to read that because I find I'm now less hungry and any hunger pangs pass very quickly. The concept of SIRT foods is interesting though and I might try and incorporate more in my diet.

[OohMrDarcy]

Well done on the SV Elsa

Not heard of SIRT - but I find it bonkers too... 2 days a week fasting has reduced my appetite overall and I rarely have the massive dinners I used to manage easily now! I certainly don't feel hungry all the time - less than ever actually

[Madnson]

Hi guys a little off topic, but in the fast diet book Mosley often a refers to a word then defines it as what ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. What is that? Can't find my book anywhere

[annielostit]

I've seen the sirt book advertised, oh no not another 'diet'.
Learning from 5:2 all diet plans if followed to the letter are generally keeping to your bodies needed calories. A diet that cuts out carbs, cuts loads of Cal's, a ready meal - portion control cuts calories. A juice for breakfast, you've cut calories!!.. Defo all bonkers mrd. I'm with you, I like this woe,
Eat 3 meals a day, have veg & fruit & limit the crap. Let's make a diet out of that

[annielostit]

Dr. Michael Mosley's #1 New York Times bestseller The FastDiet gave the world a ... In other words, snacking doesn't mean that we eat less at mealtimes; it just ...... The scientific term is “hormesis”—what does not kill you makes you stronger.
Is this it madnson

[annielostit]

Hormesis is in the science of fasting chapter.

[Breadandwine]

Hormesis. From the link in the OP.

[lovemyway]

FD today, first of the week (maintaining) So to distract myself have been shopping and got 2 pairs of size 10 skinny jeans that I tried on in the dreaded fitting rooms of the shop and they fit. SUPER SMUG NSV!!!

[Madnson]

Thank you, should of read the op

[TheHoneyBadger]

hi. have hopefully made up for my creamy pasta fest last night by then having a complete fast for 20 hours after it then eating just one meal and back to fasting. also alcohol free.

should manage to make this into a long fast too - at least 19hrs and then aim for well under tdee and no alcohol or just one glass of wine.

have been really suffering today, after initially feeling ok for an hour or two in the morning, feeling rotten physically and emotionally with the lurgy and what i hope is pmt rather than the genuine state of my head/heart. managing to fast and reclaw last nights calories was at least an achievement to hold onto in the anxiety ridden bleurgh.

really hope to feel better tomorrow or it's off to the pharmacy for emergency meds for both the lurgy and the killer anxiety.

[TheHoneyBadger]

actually thinking about it i might have done a 500cal or less day and re-calculating i realise it was a 21hr fast. might brave the scales tomorrow when it will be two weeks since i started.

and in moments of not feeling so bad today i managed some counter press ups, tricep dips and side planks with hip lifts and some other abs stuff. don't know if that's wise when ill but it actually helped my mood a bit.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on your SV and 40 ln milestone, MrD
You've lost either ⅔ of that elephant's penis (poor elephant !) or a 15-ft canoe !
You'll lose a lot more, so if you are replenishing your wardrobe, maybe consider charity shops for clothes to last a few months.

MrsFizzy With a sprained ankle, I suggest you work on your abs and your upper body strength.
Try 3 sets of 8 reps for as many of these as you can: < switches drill sergeant mode on >

Abs situps with hands forward, leg raises

Bum/Glutes On all fours, so fine for the ankle. The OP of our 5:2 ExerciseThread3 has a nice video for this.

Upper Body with weights Bench press, standing press, tricep press, bentover row, bicep curls, side deltoid raises, front deltoid raises.
If you don't have weights / gym, then do (inclined) pressups and tricep dips on a step, 3 sets of 10 each

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done to supersmug lovemyway for the Skinny 10 NSV

Congrats on your SV, Edna
Another 3lb and you can celebrate return to WW (Wedding Weight)
A really long zero-cal fast of say 20-24 hrs does seem optimal for fat-burning, especially as you then often don't want to gorge.

I hope your job conditions improve v soon. Horrible for you to be so stressed - work hours are a substantial % of our waking hours.

Well done on your SV, Elsa The average loss is 1lpb oer week, but there is wise variation.
Some folk start with a few stone to lose, hence naturally lose more quickly, or lose in fits and starts, with long gaps between.
Some will lose more slowly due to thyroid conditions, PCOs etc
It doesn't matter; it's not a competition. You lose at the rate that suits your individual body & lifestyle.

That's got to be a healthy low-alcohol NSV, Short
Well done < Short's liver joins in the applause>

Annie 3x 80 mins per week is fine. It keeps you healthy and toned.
If totm is around, you may be retaining water already - some women retain water for about 2 weeks of every 4. The joy of hormones.
When you weigh after totm, the monthly trend should be downwards

[BigChocFrenzy]

.... average loss is 1lb per week, but wide variation. < iPad burped there>

[OohMrDarcy]

I'd completely forgotten about my elephants penis!! Can't wait until I've lost the whole thing, its getting uncomfortable

My plan is to lower my low budget standards further than normal and do a primark shop for a few tops etc to keep me going, and I need a whole new wardrobe for my summer holiday (August) but where I buy that will depend on what size I am by then! I've seen some lovely dresses in Phase 8 but don't want to spend that kind of money if I'll be too small for it by the time I can wear it a second time

Love - well done on the NSV - can't wait to fit some size 10 jeans again!

Honey - I think a nice long fast either side of a lovely creamy pasta dish has got to balance it out! fingers crossed for your weigh in tomorrow!

[BigChocFrenzy]

I haven't heard about the SIRT book, but ....
When you are secure about your own diet / exercise / cooking skills / hairdo then you generally don't try to denigrate others.

[ednabuckett]

Mr D I'm so inspired by you and all your success. You can read in your posts how happy you are about it.

[BigChocFrenzy]

... and she wasn't sure when she started if 5:2 would work for her ....

[OohMrDarcy]

Ahh thanks Edna.... It came at a time I really needed it. Had gone through the breakup of my married (his affair) after a 13 year relationship which I hadn't noticed but had slowly eroded all my self esteem. I started 5:2 on a whim one day in September, after hearing it mentioned twice... figured I'd give it a go for a week or two and see what happened - lost a stone that month

For me, I was ready to put the emotional eating aside, and concentrate on making myself happy and confident again - this WOE has been a big part of that and in the 5 months (nearly) since I started, I've finalised my divorce, and got happy in my skin again. I don't eat out of boredom or to stifle emotions any more - two things I definitely did in the past! All my eating habits have changed, and for the better. Which has also enabled me to be a better mum to my kids - they always ate pretty well anyway, but they are now eating more veg, less sweet crap, less fruit sugars, less processed meal / crap fast food stuff - and I can see they feel better for it too.

So yeah - big long waffle there, but I love this WOE, I love the health benefits its brought me already - asthma has improved, skin has improved, energy levels improved (minus the current mild anaemia symptoms!), my shape has changed massively - and thinking back to my diet before this... I'm pretty sure I've reduced massively my risk of developing T2 diabetes too - whats not to feel positive about?!

[Breadandwine]

Tha's a lovely post, MrDarcy!

Thanks for sharing.

[OohMrDarcy]

Don't encourage me bread, I could go on forever

I even did some situps and pushups on a whim this morning, feel like the old me again - the one who trained 3 times a week at her karate club, did 50 pushups and 100 situps morning and night... for fun - that mentalist is coming back haha!

Admitedly I only did 30 situps, and 10 pushups (on knees, but proper on knees rather than the half arsed ones!) but its a start!!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Your stupid exH has lost a real MrD
You have been so brave and strong, as an independent woman making a better life for yourself.