5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, clearskies

If you can eat mindfully and reasonably healthily on NFDs, then you should lose very well on 5:2

Good luck ttc, Boldly !
The 5:2 stork has visited a lot of people on these threads.
If your periods are fairly regular, I can't see a problem continuing with 5:2 and ttc:
you wouldn't be fasting after the first month, when the foetus is only 2 mm - i.e. requiring almost no energy from you.

If you want to be very cautious, I'd advise cutting out alcohol - the highest risk of damage seems to be v early, in weeks 3 to 8.

[mootime]

Evening!
Happy birthday Mrs D.
Boldly good luck TTC!

So today has gone better than expected. Out all day with the DC and managed a low carb lunch (ham egg and salad) and supper (burger no bun sweet potato chips and salad). Probably to many carbs ideally ( had a couple of milky coffees to keep me going mentally through the day! ) but so much better than it would usually have been.

I am however constantly hungry at the moment which I'm struggling with. I may not be drinking enough water....

[Lokisglowstickofdestiny]

Hi, I introduced myself yesterday on the exercise thread, meant to do it on this thread! I've just done my first week with 2 fast days, and gone from 72.3 to 71.6 kg. Would like to get to 60kg by July.
choc thanks for the interval tip when walking on the other thread, that could work well for me. I could also use our exercise bike and plough my way through 9 series of the original x-files!

[boldlygoingsomewhere]

Thanks, Annie and BigChoc. I will carry on as normal then and see what happens. I don't drink alcohol on a regular basis- birthdays and Christmas only- so no fears there.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the main thread, lok
Well done on a good 1st week and your SV

The walking and bike would be a good exercise routine
I also suggest you add a few minutes Fat Blast (as in exercise thread OP) on 3-5 days, to boost fitness and help any metabolic issues.

[Clearskies99]

Thanks for the welcomes BCF and Persis.

Have had a good start to this new world of 5:2. Lovely first FD, kept warm and active and drank loads and loads of hot water. Felt very hungry overnight after it and a bit fluey the next morning but it was all manageable and it generally felt very good having a semi-break from food and just having two preplanned small meals.

Looking forward to FD no 2 tomorrow

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done on your 1st FD, Clearskies
Most folk find it takes 2-3 weeks for their bodies to adjust to fasting, after which it becomes a natural part of their routine.

It helps to regard FDs as "pampering days" on which you treat yourself to e.g. nails or hair done, a foot or back massage (but NOT a sauna), face mask, a long soak in bubble bath, scented candles, .... or just have an early night, for extra sleep.

[ToniMumsnet]

Thought I'd say Hi. I've been on 5:2 since the start of December and its going great. I took a break this last week as we were away on holiday. When I did that over Christmas I got awful headaches on my first few FDs back. Any suggestions as I am dreading tomorrows FD.

[Clearskies99]

Thanks BCF I'm definitely viewing it as a process of getting used to a new rhythm to the week and getting used to 2 low calorie days which I've never done before.

ToniMumsnet Drinking lots of water throughout the day (warm/hot for this time of year so it doesn't make you feel cold) and doing some gentle exercise has always helped me loads when fasting in the past.

[MelanieCheeks]

I have a whole range of drinks to see me through FDs - black coffee (I have a Christmas flavored one which smells heavenly), green and rooibos teas, bouillon, Bovril, diet ginger beer...

I do keep a few aspirin handy if the headaches are too bad, but salty drinks help enormously.

[Ninjawarrior1]

Evening all. I have just read the whole thread (!) and would like to join you. I have done 5:2 before (about 2 years ago) with some success but didn't stick at it and, in hindsight, could have done it better. I didn't track calories on my NFD (and didn't know about the TDEE calc) so it was a bit hit and miss. I feel much more positive reading all the helpful info here as well as some truly inspiring weight-loss stories.

I still have the 5:2 book as well as a recipe book so will dig those out this evening for a refresher (although this thread - especially the OP - seems to cover most of it). I am going to make Tuesday my first FD as the children have an Inset day tomorrow and I'll be at home with them. I find it much, much easier to have fast on the days I'm at work (I work 3 days a week).

I currently weigh 13st 9 so have around 2 stones to lose to get into healthy BMI (I am just over 5'7"). I can't imagine losing all that weight but would really, really like this to be the year that I do.

One question for you all: one of the reasons I gave up 5:2 before was that fact that it made me quite 'hangry' towards the end of the day and I felt it was quite unfair on the children as it made me very short with them. Any tips on avoiding this? (other than cheer the fuck up!)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Hi there, Toni Good to hear you are doing well
To avoid headaches:

• I recommend a teasp of Marmite or a tbsp of unsweetened soy sauce, each on their own (and only 10 cals)
  . This replenishes the salt and other minerals that you may lose on an FD, or not receive enough of, because of the reduced food.
  
  
• Now is not the time to give up caffeine - withdrawal symptoms can include headaches. Dr M suggests Stevia sweetener instead of sugar.
  
  
• Keep your FD low GI, concentrating on protein and lots of veg.
  . Avoid fruit juice or breakfast cereals, due to sugar content.
  . If you want fruit, then no more than 1 or 2 portions per FD and have it with your meal, not on its own.
  . If you have starches on FDs, make the portions small and complex, e.g. brown rice, wholegrain bread, quinoa.
  . If you have yoghurt, make it plain and you can lower GI by adding almonds or seeds instead of fruit
  
  
• No snacking / grazing between meals
  . Even healthy snacks keep insulin raised and they reduce cals available for meals. Most folk need one decent meal per day, to avoid headaches.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Tip for all: Avoid waking up with your blood sugar already out of whack.
So:
The evening before an FD, have a nourishing supper, no junk and keep alcohol within the nhs limits.
Have plenty of protein & veg, with optionally a sensible portion of complex carbs.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, Ninja

Mosely's 5:2 version of the Blood Sugar Diet may be more suitable for you - and anyone else finding FDs very tough:
5:2 BSD is low carb Mediteranean with 2 x 800 cal FDs
He write that people who have problems with 500-cal FDs may have blood sugar issues, but can often handle 800-cals on low carb.

You eat:
. Fish especially, but poultry & meat too, eggs, cheese, yoghurt, nuts, seeds
. Non-starchy veg, beans, peas, lentils, olive oil
BUT
. No starchy carbs on FDs and only a couple of tbsps as a side on NFDS
. No added sugar or sugary / carby junk any day
. As always, no alcohol on FDs

This BSD version of low carb is easier and very healthy with the addition of beans, lentils, peas - which add fibre, support good gut bacteria and help stabilise blood sugar.

[PersisFord]

Hi everyone. Hope all the weekend fasters (hardcore!!!) have done well. I have struggled a bit with my NFDs - did my first 2 FDs mon and tues last week, felt great til Friday.....then went for pizza on Saturday (fasted all day so still under TDEE) and it was like it broke a seal!!! Have eaten loads today and have just polished off a whole tub of yoghurt to myself in the full knowledge that I was not hungry or even particularly enjoying it....just eating for the sake of eating. I'm pretty disappointed in myself esp as I weighed myself every morning this week and kept below 70kg which was wonderful. Could do with a bit of a virtual kick up the bum I think....

[Ninjawarrior1]

Thanks BCF. I don't know too much about the BSD - had never heard of it until this thread.

I think I will give regular 5:2 another go and see how I get on. Apart from the grumpiness, I think it was OK. Also, reading this thread has given me ideas for how I can do things differently. Before I was trying to spread my 500 calories across 3 meals which probably isn't the best idea. And my evening meal I would wait and eat with DH when the DCs were in bed (as we usually do). The problem with that is it would leave me almost 3 hours with the DCs at the end of the day once I got home from work when I was really hungry. I think a better plan might be to skip breakfast, have something very light for lunch and then eat my dinner when I get home (around 5.30/6.00) rather than waiting until they've gone to bed. Also, I can't remember how long I did it for but probably didn't do it regularly for long enough to get past the really hard bit and more into the swing of things.

Back then, it never really occurred to me that there might be a way of doing it differently but this thread it useful in illustrating that there are different ways of doing things to make it work better for you.

[Pigeonpost]

De-lurking to say hello as I am committing myself to losing 4 stone before I turn 40 in 18 months time. Do-able I think? Anyway I lost a stone whilst pregnant with DS3 by doing 5:2 (I know it's not recommended but it kept my BMI just in check) but I now weigh more than I ever have, even without being heavily pregnant. I have a revolting barrel shaped belly, giant arms and several chins which are really sappy my confidence. I used to do my FD when I was at work but now I'm a SAHM it's much more of a challenge. Hoping this thread can keep me on the straight and narrow.

[Talulaley]

Just found this thread and am about to read through it.

I've not tried 5:2 before, but I need to lose a stone or maybe one and a half .. I'm picking Wednesday and Friday as my fast days, as I don't see my bf much on those days.

I'm 51 and struggle to keep the weight off, although I have been comfort eating a lot - had a difficult year last year, separated from dh, df passed away, dm was treated for cancer.

I've looked at the calculator and apparently my TDEE is 1680 cals. I've downloaded the mfp app to help me keep track.

[annielostit]

Morning all & hi to newbies, lots of you I've been AWOL since Thursday/Friday???
FD #1, my body is trying me out again with fluid again (wrong side of 45 & not sure what it's doing) so am going back to basics & if I cope b2b.
Good luck all Monday fasters

[Kitla]

Hello Pigeon and Tallulah! I don't post much on here, as I'm a newbie myself, but there's lots of great advice and I've certainly lost weight. So I should imagine 4 st in 18 months is more than doable.

Good luck Annie on your FD today!

For me, it was half term last week, so I didn't fast but just tried to maintain and keep below my MFP limits. I lost 1lb last week, which I'm pleased with and now have my sights on getting to that first stone. Lost 10 lb so far, only 4 to go!!

[PersisFord]

Right, fasting today. Who's with me?!?! .

Nothing til lunchtime for me, then a jelly and some green tea, then soup and chick peas for supper.

[Clearskies99]

I'm in ! < encouraging wave of stick (sword substitute) to Persis >

On FD no2. Have lost 4lb since last thursday when my 5:2 journey began and am feeling very motivated to keep on track.

Got a streaming cold and a day of working at home and going into town to help elderly mother so going to try to keep busy and warm.

On the menu here - Lentil, kale and cabbage soup with boiled egg then greens and salmon later. Have celery sticks and miso soup sachet as emergency back ups.

Welcome Talu. Good luck with a fresh start after a tough year.. Yes, comfort eating is a nightmare isn't it. Here's to eating for true hunger!

Have a good day Monday fasters

[Pigeonpost]

Yep, I'm a Monday faster. Soup for lunch then probably an omelette and veg for dinner. Got 3 hours of cleaning now to keep me busy. Sigh...

[BigChocFrenzy]

Good morning and good luck to the Monday fasters.
I'm fasting too, planning a v low carb FD

Welcome, Pigeon, Talulaley

Lots of tips, links and scientific background in the OP and you can also read some success stories on the Inspirational Thread*

[BigChocFrenzy]

Talulaley Several of us who are peri / post-meno have found that 5:2 works where other methods have failed, both to lose weight and get rid of the extra inches that suddenly appeared around the waist

Intermittent Fasting helps correct the changes to insulin metabolism that usually accompany the other hormonal changes around this life stage.

Pigeon Quite a few women have started these threads on bmi 40+ and lost a lot of weight.
Your goal of being 4 stone / 56 lb lighter in 18 months looks very doable if you stick to the plan.
MrD has already lost 40lb since late summer I think and is continuing to lose
(Yoohoo, MrD when did you start ?)
Those with a lot to lose, usually find they lose more quickly, often 2-4 lb per week to start with.

In fact, you may well reach goal earlier and then be settled into your maintenance plan
Yes, you will need a maintenance plan to avoid regain, but you can stay at goal permanently. There are several maintainers on these threads, some of whom have stayed at goal 2-3 years.