5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Maddy128]

Sorry to hear you're not feeling all that MrD. There are some simple ways to eat iron-rich foods, eg. Beans on toast with a glass of OJ, or a chicken and spinach salad. Hope you feel better soon.

Been for a walk to the doctors this morning and my goodness it's freeeeezing out there!! Having a cup a soup to warm myself up again - Ainsley Harriot hot and sour Szechuan soup, only 66kcals! Yum!

[Maddy128]

Also just recalculated my TDEE and it's 1703 which means I should only have 425 cals on a FD!!! Waaahhhh

[Iamblossom]

Maddy I don't think that is the case - I think you can have 500 regardless of your TDEE....Big Choc?

[Iamblossom]

My TDEE is 1650 and I still have 500-550 on FDs....

[Vibrantella]

MrD, I have found a tonic that has given me a new lease of life and all day energy - Vitamin D supplement, essential in winter. I would advise that you read up on it, how important it is for many thousands of processes in the body, and that acts more like a hormone than just a vitamin.

I have also had low ferritin (iron storage) in the past and been prescribed iron pills - they did not give me that much energy. Still, best to get tested and bring your levels up to optimal.

To save energy and avoid biscuits, how about cooking extra on NFDs and eating the leftover portion on FDs? I do that sometimes, especially in winter when I know I'll want a hot meal rather than a salad.

[OohMrDarcy]

Right, I'm back - have had my walk to the shop which though freezing outside did not seem to wake me up at all... however!

In the little boots, I found a single box of a 28 day supply of spatone sachets - the only liquid Iron supplement they seemed to have. I took this as a sign and bought it - just had first one, tastes fine - so will give it a go along with wily ways of improving my diet for the 28 days, if I don't feel improvement by then I'll go to the docs, promise!

Also nipped into the co-op, unfortunately didn't have any beef suitable for casserole / stew type things - but did have the sauce mix sachets - so have bought a few of them , thats my one cooking failing - I'm crap at the stew gravy type bit! Going to do slow cooker cottage pie tomorrow - so mince and veg in the slow cooker, at lunchtime I'll make the mash, so its all ready to assemble when I pick the kids up - should get me going, and once its in the oven I can easily see me managing motivation for some extra veg to go with it. Will sort some extra meat options on the next food shop.

I'm also having a glass of orange juice with my lunch to boost the absorption of the iron....

Maddy - I've not changed my FD amount relative to TDEE, I think the idea is that you'll just lose slower as you get slimmer, which is of course to be expected.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Maddy and everyone else with low TDEE:
Both Mosely & Varady say all women should use 500 on FDs. It works in practice and those extra few calories make it more sustainable, which is v important.

Men with higher TDEE than 2400 can choose to either keep to 600 or increase to 25% TDEE if they prefer.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Iron Deficiency
Many women of menstruating age are low on iron, sometimes other minerals too.
Especially if you have heavy periods / do a lot of running / have a vegan / vegetarian diet.

Symptoms are constant tiredness - difficult for most mums to notice this !

Iron Supplements:
I'm not a fan, unless the GP advises them - possible side effects like diarrhea, upset tum, inflammation etc in some women.
Definitely consult the GO if you are T2, because side effects there may be serious.

Never exceed the stated dose
They are absorbed better on an empty tum, but at least don't take them with dairy or caffeine, including tea.

If you are taking any prescribed meds, do tell the GP, in case they interact.
In any case, mention on your next visit, in case the iron supplements interfere with future tests.

More Iron from Food

Highest sources (in descending order):
liver, clams, oysters, beef, sardines, turkey, chicken, salmon, tuna, haddock, ham

Important With vegetarian sources of iron, you must combine them in the same meal with food containing vitamin C, to enable sufficient absorption.

Combine Vit C sources - especially good: apple, tomatoes, pomegranates, peaches, dates, bell peppers
with iron sources - recommended: spinach, soy / kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, almonds, walnuts, sesame seeds, broccoli, baked potato

Suggestions: (Good for other minerals too)

• Bake cake / biscuits with dates and walnuts
  
• Add spinach and sesame seeds or roasted nuts to curry or stirfry
  
• Moroccan vegan tajine with chick peas and dried apricots
  
• Garnish a savoury dish with yoghurt and pomegranates
  
• Dessert: slices of orange sprinkled with roasted nuts and pomegranate

[diggerdigsdogs]

MrD it may be your ferritin (sp) levels are low. These are your iron stores and different from iron levels. But I don't know any of the sciencey stuff beyond that I'm afraid.

Taking an iron supplement (on docs suggestion) has literally changed my life. I could barely function when pg with dc3 and if I stop taking the iron I damn well know it within a few weeks.

I was recently told to take it with a vitb12 tab which I'm now doing too.

[Maddy128]

Ooh ok thanks blossom, MrD and BigC. I was under the impression that FD cals should be 1/4 of TDEE. That's what my 5:2 book says! Good to know I can still use 500, it would be a major struggle otherwise!!!

[GeordieBadger]

Okay guys, CAN I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE.

I am going to finally take the plunge and invest in a Fitbit. What model do you recommend? I workout almost every day (combo of HIIT and weights) so it would get a lot of use.

[mayflyaway]

Decided to do a back to back fast - just finished on 501 (random combination of avocado, spinach, tomato, eggs & goats' cheese for dinner). Mint tea only for me until (early) bedtime!

NFD tomorrow, I have a friend coming for lunch & want to do something lowish carb ... thinking of a vegetable frittata, will forgo pudding in an attempt to stay on track!

[TheHoneyBadger]

longer eating window than usual due to being ill but haven't done too badly. managed to make a simple chicken and veg stew and glad i did as the sick munchies kicked in as expected and i ate 3 bowls. better three bowls of healthy stew than piles of crap.

[TheHoneyBadger]

i'm also drinking a tall glass of wine and soda - at just after 7pm kitchen has normally closed by now but sod it i'm ill and fancied something refreshing and comforting.

[annielostit]

B2b FD over. Easier than expected. Got through till 2 &succumbed to clear vegetable soup. Just filled my boots with fresh made cottage pie cabbage & beans. 691 Cal's.
How's everyone's day gone??

[HortonWho]

Mast, Varady does say it should be 25% which they determined for each study participant. If you have means to a sophisticated test other than just guesswork from online calculators, you should definitely do that. However, what she follows up with in her book is
"...An individualised version of the EOD diet is not required for it to work. Why not? Because my studies have allowed me to determine a consistent average caloric intake on Diet Day: 480 calories for women and 520 calories for men."

So she's basically found the average for women is 480 and dumbed this down a bit more by making it 500 for everyone.

[HortonWho]

Maddy not Mast

[Maddy128]

Great, thanks Horton.
I noticed in my book (Kate Harrison) she works out 1/4 TDEE for fasting but then says that Mosely suggests 500. I'll stick with 480-500 for FDs in that case, as it seems the generally agreed amount. Thanks for the background info.

Worst part of the FD is nearly over - from the moment I have to cook DD's dinner, to the moment DH comes home from work and I can eat my little FD dinner! Longest two and a half hours ever!!!!!

[OohMrDarcy]

I've had my roast and it was delicious... lovely tender chicken breast with a couple of roasties, a mountain of spring greens, fine green beans, brocolli, carrots and a yorkie with gravy..... yummy - and pleased that I've got plenty of iron rich veggies in there. DD did the evening veg prep (I'd done the potatoes and carrots earlier) so that helped.

Geordie... what are you hoping for your fitbit to do? the basic ones won't pick up much from your HIIT etc....

[HortonWho]

Maddy, I think at end of day, when labels are allowed 20% errors in their nutritional information and use averages (BBC article here), we can only really estimate the calories of any prepared and prepackaged foods. Yay boiled eggs

[PurpleAlerts]

FD today- hearty chicken broth for lunch- 130 cals and a sausage and crushed root veg ready meal for tea. Topped it off with a couple of kiwi total cals around 510.

Looking forward to a NFD tomorrow-there have been loads of birthdays at work this week and have had to resist the cakes and pastries today!

Hoping the scales will show another lb or so loss tomorrow!

[Maddy128]

Good point Horton! It's probably best that I don't get too got bogged down in the nitty gritty of the numbers anyway, won't help motivate me if I'm worrying!

Kitchen closed at 524 today. Really pleased with that result, though I must admit I'm looking forward to eating normally tomorrow. It's difficult in the winter - I had 3 meals of soup today just to stay warm!!

Also, prob not a good idea to watch the Bake Off on a FD. Want caaaake!!!!!!!!!

[Maddy128]

Next FD target is going to be to get between 480 and 500. Haven't managed not to go a little bit over 500 so far.

[diggerdigsdogs]

Morning all. Kids all woke early and are now snoring in bed. It's 5:40 here

Thursday FD here. And I've weighed myself. Another 0.7kg gone.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on yet another SV, digger You are doing very well indeed.
Did you say your OH is also 5:2ing ? (if I haven't had a brain fart) Are you beating him ? < oops, that looks very cruel once typed ! >

Maddy 50-100 cals variation on your FDs makes hardly any difference.
Sustainability is the key for FDs.
If you manage most FDs, then what determines weight loss for most 5:2ers is what happens on NFDs, so I recommend being mindful on those.