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Brexit

Westminstenders: Political vacuums are very bad things

987 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2020 23:18

Johnson has been notible (once again) but his absence.

Whilst we appreciate he has been ill and has a new baby, we are in the midst of a national crisis and a sense of leadership and guidance from our prime minister has been lacking.

And its not gone unnoticed.

Not just by the press. And not just by opposition. Nor NHS and care managers. But on the ground where it matters.

The lack of the sense of seriousness has dissipated. The sense of duty to country to behave. The idea that it will some how be all over this week when it doesn't appear to be the government strategy. The total lack of policy for a week whilst it's become clear bit by bit that these things have been under discussion and decided upon prior to the supposed key meeting on Thursday from the announcements from the regional assemblies. All in favour of a TV stunt tomorrow night.

Let's see how that goes.

The grandstanding isn't a substitute for detail and substance in a crisis. And we still have the looming show down at the end of June over extension of transition. More optics. More lack of practicality at a time when things will really be on the brink.

The next month will be telling and we hit the wall of economic reality which will bring the whole world crashing in on the lives of so many people.

This is the calm before the storm. Enough the sunshine. Enjoy the time with families. Before this is over everything will have changed for so many.

This is just the start of things unravelling and it needs someone to take control and draw up solid blueprints for all our futures. Is a man who is so frequently awol from where he is supposed to be and doesn't take commitments and responsibilities seriously, really the man for that?

Churchill had a vision for the country that cited housing as our second social service, the NHS being our first.

Will Johnson manage to some how forge out so grand new venture which gives the resource and rewards it deserves to the NHS (beyond lipservice and empty platitudes and clapping, that recognises the importance of social care and can stop the almost inevitable coming wave of homelessness and unemployment

And can he do it without selling us off as a basement bargain to the us?

OP posts:
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Auntlouisa · 12/05/2020 16:03

So Starmer has come out AGAINST an extension to the transition period!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/05/2020 16:06

Yep, Peregrina I read that some German gernerals thought Britain & France could have ended WW2 right then before it had really started

But both countries buggered about and chickened out Sad
Shit political & military leadership then, SNAFU

missclimpson · 12/05/2020 16:08

Very clever tactics by Starmer. He won’t push the goverment to ask for one. They say they can get a deal done in time so he will see how they do.

AuldAlliance · 12/05/2020 16:14

Considering we were a mere “Wasserrate” the British did manage to keep their army in Germany for quite a long while Grin 25,000 of them still there as late as 1994 seemingly.

Hang on while I find the list of military victories the British Army won in Germany between 1945 and 1994...

Some kids at my school in the late 80s/early 90s had fathers who were posted in Bielefeld. I remember a lot of talk about the NAAFI shops and considerably less angst than anyone whose family members were in NI, for instance, or Iraq a little later.

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 16:20

I see someone else has discovered the rabbit hole that is Mark Felton Grin

WW2 was a failure of the Treaty of Versailles - or rather a failure of the British, French and US to enforce it. And sadly, with the telescoping effect of time, it's easier and easier to blame the generations of the time for being weak, or scared or ignorant or complacent. But that's to overlook the fact that they had just come through the First world war. Which might have affected their judgement, if only we had some way of knowing.

If the ToV had been enforced from the first second of Hitlers accession to power, would WW2 have still happened ? No idea.

However, the acquiescence of Britain, France and the US over the ToV infringements cannot be solely excused as a fear of war and a desire to prevent the slaughter of the Great War. If it could, then maybe we'd all be a little bit more innocent or pure. Part of the blind eye turned to the rise of Nazi Germany - even as far up as the big "C" himself (as no one has ever called him until now) was because they were a useful ally in the fight against communism (or Bolshevism) and as such it suited Britain, France and the US to have Hitler in power. If you really want to keep leopards as guard dogs, you really really really need to understand they are simply untameable and will happily snack on what they are guarding ...

Put that way, WW2 could be considered the fault of the ruling classes of Britain, France and the US who were so desperate to hang on to their booty they thought that a strong Fascist counter to Russia made sense.

LouiseCollins28 · 12/05/2020 16:32

No military victory needed Auld There for 50 years, helping protect Western Europe from Communism and it worked 24/7/365/50

Just to note as well, remarkable that in 1957 there were 80,000 people posted there. There to contribute to defending another European nation from the Soviets. I think the whole of the reguar Army today amounts to few more numbers wise.

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 12/05/2020 16:40

El Alamein stands out as the only significant set-piece battle won by the British against the Germans in WW2. The failure to break out from the Eastern Beaches and take Caen without first flattening it from the air and killing more French than the Germans ever did was the object lesson. Fllow that with the balls-up at Arnhem and you can see why Ike declined to let Monty race to Berlin, because we can all see how that would have ended.

Montgomery very much Britain'ss Custer, only he got away with it.

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 16:47

El Alamein stands out as the only significant set-piece battle won by the British against the Germans in WW2.

More for the deception than the battle, really. If the war had been fought as a corporate undertaking, the UK would very much have been in the R&D division with the US on the production and operational sides.

The irony that British companies detest, loathe and eschew R&D wherever and whenever they suspect it's going on is too painful to bear.

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 16:50

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Westminstenders: Political vacuums are very bad things
missclimpson · 12/05/2020 16:50

The Normandy campaign was much more complex than that Mockers. I am not sure what you mean by the "Eastern" beaches but the ridges on the plain of Caen are far more formidable fighting territory than people realise. Carlo d'Este is no fan of Montgomery, but he gives a very fair account.
(I live in that bit of Normany btw).

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 16:51

Something from the antipodes (I love the look Smile)

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 16:57

Just in case anyone thinks I've lost my hippy heart ..

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 17:03

Like King Arthur pledged to come to the countries aid in times of need (England obviously) the Block of Ice has stepped up to the plate.

Westminstenders: Political vacuums are very bad things
Auntlouisa · 12/05/2020 17:05

A bit sick of the Labour party saying - Let's just wait and see whether the government can do the hugely improbable thing it says it will (in the hope that it won't be able to and will be shown up). Starmer knows the Tories are going for a hard Brexit. He knows that if an extension isn't agreed by end of June there won't be one, and there WILL be a hard Brexit. So what's so clever about waiting for one, rather than doing everything he can to try to bring about an extension? It's not a game. I thought Starmer knew that.

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 12/05/2020 17:05

Gold, Juno and Sword were the Eastern beaches as opposed to Utah and Bloody Omaha in the West.

The British did better with their initial landings, but their progress after that was markedly slower than the Americans who once they got off Omaha and up the Point du Hoc advanced rapidly, especially when Patton turns up.

The Bocage was tough for everyone, but the British were more reluctant to risk committing forces to ge through it.

Lots of good accounts. I'm a Max Hastings fan, along with Beevor and Ambrose.

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 17:11

A bit sick of the Labour party saying - Let's just wait and see whether the government can do the hugely improbable thing it says it will (in the hope that it won't be able to and will be shown up). Starmer knows the Tories are going for a hard Brexit. He knows that if an extension isn't agreed by end of June there won't be one, and there WILL be a hard Brexit. So what's so clever about waiting for one, rather than doing everything he can to try to bring about an extension? It's not a game. I thought Starmer knew that.

So what would you do to try and get an extension, once common sense has failed. A seance ? Voodoo ? Run a rope around the UK and do a conga ?

ListeningQuietly · 12/05/2020 17:14

Today's update from the trunk road network
and a first since before lockdown started ....
Removal vans
Only two of them but definitely the first I have seen (in five counties) since March
and the effing white van men are all over the roads like a rash
along with a couple of supercars being driven as if the roads were still empty
Interesting times

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 17:30

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Westminstenders: Political vacuums are very bad things
missclimpson · 12/05/2020 17:35

Mockers I realised what you meant by eastern after I wrote it. They are our nearest beaches and when you turn round from your swim and come out of the sea it still looks like the newsreels.

The Americans had less opposition and easier territory once out of the bocage. I think Monty was genuinely held back by concerns of British and Canadian loss of life, but his worst mistake was his post hoc justification which was clearly bollocks.
I detest Max Hastings, but like Anthony Beevor. I still think Carlo d'Este is the best account though. George Blackburn is good from a Canadian point of view and Stuart Hills who was in the fighting down to the Noireau. I never drive along that river valley without thinking, 'how on earth did they do that".

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 12/05/2020 17:41

My personal views on Max Hastings are not here nor there. He knows his stuff.

Even Davd Irving is still worth a read for Das Reich.

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 17:43

My personal views on Max Hastings are not here nor there. He knows his stuff.

Doesn't he detest Boris ?

KonTikki · 12/05/2020 17:56

Eisenhower gave Montgomery the command of 2 US Corps during the Ardennes offensive, because the American commander basically had a nervous breakdown.
Certainly, Montgomery was a PIA but Eisenhowrr valued his combat experience.

DGRossetti · 12/05/2020 18:00

Certainly, Montgomery was a PIA but Eisenhowrr valued his combat experience.

Mark of a great general.

It's hard not to like Eisenhower as a soldier that became president that gave the speech about "every bullet made ..." warning (which the world decided wasn't really worth listening too).

Peregrina · 12/05/2020 18:06

I was not necessarily convinced that the French could have changed the course of the war - I think at best they might have stalled the progress of it. Had Hitler withdrawn his troops from the eastern front then the USSR would have swept further into Poland.

It interested me because it's something that we know virtually nothing about.

Peregrina · 12/05/2020 18:10

A bit sick of the Labour party saying - Let's just wait and see whether the government can do the hugely improbable thing it says it will (in the hope that it won't be able to and will be shown up).

I am disappointed too, but realistically with Johnson having an 80 seat majority, full of placemen and women, what realistically can Starmer do? Someone pointed out that not having an extension is the law. If Starmer tried to get a vote to change it, the numbers would be against him. I think his only hope is to let Johnson make a mess.