Cake and eat it. Wrong again.

[Cobblersandhogwash]

Brexiteer minister thinks free movement is essential for musicians.

God. Why don't they get it? This is what Brexit is. FoM is over. Done.

And if they want FoM for British musicians, what about everyone else?

It just shows how shortsighted they are and what a complete and utter lack of understanding they have of the cornerstones of EU membership.

Such a loss.

No I haven't gone off to some other thread to claim I've been bullied! I have a life and haven't been on MN for a couple of days.
First of all I never said things were better in the 70s, I said it worked before so why wouldn't they be able to tour again? I certainly don't harp back to the 70s as if it was where my mind set is, but it's the last time we have any example of being out of the EU so the only example anyone can use to illustrate their point.
My second post was in response to being called a little Englander and classic brexiteer! and for some reason I made the poster so 'fucking angry'! Get over yourselves.
The thread was about musicians not being able to tour as easily as of course 'FOM is over' as the OP pointed out.
The idea that touring will all end because there will be visas and carnets to fill in is just daft. I expect these will be done on line just as they are for any other country. A poster mentioned that touring is really lucrative now, so in that case a few wee online questions aren't going to stop touring musicians.
Oh and by the way the reason I object to being call a 'little Englander' is that I am Scottish!

I've had a swift google.
Carnets look like a little bit more than a few wee online questions.
A carnet, as its name suggests, is a paper notebook. It has vouchers and counterfoils.
livemusicbusiness.com/what-is-a-carnet-for-musicians/
www.tourbloke.com/tbgraphics/carnet/howuse.htm
You have to detail every single item, even the tiniest, giving its size, weight, origin and value.
Then, tourbloke says:
Fill in the details (outlined above) on the first yellow export and white import sheets.
At Dover (or other port of exit) get the carnet stamped by UK customs; at Dover it's the Export Freight office who will handle this for you. They may or may not take the first yellow export sheet.
At your first EU-to-non-EU border, at the customs post for the country you're leaving (e.g. Sweden) there should be a window marked "ATA" or "Carnet". Present the carnet, and check that the customs officer correctly copies the item numbers onto the counterfoil before taking their export sheet. (If Dover customs took the sheet, they will simply stamp the counterfoil.)
At the customs post for the country you're entering (e.g. Norway), present the carnet, and check that the customs correctly copies the item numbers onto the counterfoil and stamps the corresponding export sheet before taking their import sheet.
Before leaving the border, check that the item numbers on the counterfoil of the import sheet (which has been taken) are correct, and that you have the corresponding stamped export sheet in the carnet.
Repeat steps 2-5 at each border; if you're entering a non-EU country, your import sheet should be white; if you're re-entering the EU, it should be yellow.
On final re-entry to the UK, assuming you don't intend to use the carnet again, get the carnet closed at your point of entry or else return it to the office of issue for closure. Your responsibility for the carnet ends only when it has been discharged by the issuing Chamber of Commerce; the office of issue will advise you on receipt of the carnet of any mis-declaration problems which may arise.

Sure, it's not the end of the world, but neither is it a quickie online operation. Reading what I c&p'd is bad enough...

That sounds like a royal pain in the arse.

For nothing.

Zero benefit.

That's Brexshit for you.

Glad to have left the UK. Hope never have to return.

Not being a rule taker, I think it's called.
Taking back control.
Sovereignty.

Doubletrouble, one of the examples you cited was how easy it was for musicians to travel between here and the RoI. Because of the CTA it's always been easier to travel between the UK and RoI. At the time when going to e.g. France meant you were restricted in how much money you could take, and had your passport stamped, you could waltz onto the Irish boat with no ID at all. Now it's changed a bit with budget airlines and whatnot wanting ID.

Now if your 1970s roadie had been talking about how he used to toddle off to Germany regularly without any paperwork, I might be prepared to believe that it was all going to be hunky dory again. The thing is, we just don't know. Even if we have got ourselves stuck in the 1970s/1950s/1850s, the rest of the world has moved on.

Peregrina, Perhaps I didn't use the best example but the band I was talking about toured all over the world. I went out with the tour manager and I don't remember him ever having major problems arranging travel docs. As I said I'm not interested in going back to the 70s or any other decade and yes things have moved on so there is more than likely an online way of doing this. Any band worth it's socks will have it's equipment listed for insurance purposes so that list just needs to be transposed to the travel docs. as they do when they go to any other non EU country.

You make a good point though - a band will need to have a list to transpose to the travel docs, and if they travel outside the EU they will already do this. So 'taking back control' means that they have to potentially do this for another 27 countries. In what way is more paperwork an improvement?

In what way is more paperwork an improvement?

It's now Freedom Paperwork?

doubletrouble
there is more than likely an online way of doing this.

Did you read my post? I mean, I know it was endless, but that's because so is the paperwork and, no, there is not an online way of doing this.

Brexit is about cutting red tape.
So maybe the UK will just abolish all import controls

Brexit is about cutting red tape.

And replacing it with 10x more red-white-and-blue tape, but this is apparently desirable.

things have moved on so there is more than likely an online way of doing this

Musicians travel with massive boxes full of wires and metal. You can't do security checks online.

Criminal records checks, there's lot la of musicians with a drug charge that can't tour America.

Cell phones. Tour managers might as well have their phones superglued to their ears. Now it's all roaming and different rules.

Tours are MUCH more complicated now. I saw U2 in Europe and they brought a fuck off great sparkly lemon. Bigger than Bono. It's not a couple of guitars any more, it's a shit ton of equipment. Delicate, expensive equipment. Which will get checked, which takes time, which is an issue if you have to be in Strasbourg in four hours.

Not impossible but much more difficult.

Its not just music, in my DD case, it was cycling, many of her fellow competitors upped sticks and went to Spain, Portugal, Belgium to race, opportunities exist for young amateurs that just don't exist in the UK.

Going forward, a problem is the 180/90 rule and health insurance, which for competitive cycling is very expensive, i'm sure there are many other sports which will be affected.

Maybe as the govt doubtless seeks FOM exemptions for tory voters with homes in the South of France, they can also look at sport and music too?

I think we will spend many years negotiating back into these fringe EU membership benefits.

Gaming industry also going to be massively impacted by Brexit partially due to loss of fom.

At the customs post for the country you're entering (e.g. Norway), present the carnet...Repeat steps 2-5 at each border; if you're entering a non-EU country, your import sheet should be white; if you're re-entering the EU, it should be yellow.

Are you making this all sound a bit more complicated than it is? Norway are not in the EU - so EU musicians already need a carnet to take equipment into Norway - and Switzerland? Also, the EU 27 are treated as one block - would you need to faff about with the carnet moving between France and Germany for example?

I c&p'd, Clav, a procedure you are familiar with, I believe.

Those are not my words, they are the instructions provided by tourbloke on his website. If you think he is making it sound overly complicated, feel free to take it up with him.

I couldn't find instructions for what to do when travelling between the UK as a non-EU country and the EU, for obvious reasons.

Tourbloke explains what to do when travelling around Europe, crossing between EU and non-EU, so yes, this is already obligatory when going to Switzerland, but will kick in for 27 new destinations.
Yes, the procedure would presumably only need to be done once at entry to and once at exit from the EU, not when crossing EU borders.

Still seems a right PITA, though I'm sure some would think it a small price to pay for their increased other rights under Brexit, whatever they perceive them to be.
Musicians themselves don't think that. The Musicians' Union here, specifically stated that returning to pre-EU rules would be undesirable.
And this site agrees:
www.helpmusicians.org.uk/news/blog/touring-after-brexit
"If in the future acts will have to pay for a carnet as US acts currently do, for example, this will be a big hassle and extra cost. Listing every single piece of equipment and merchandise you bring into a country - down to the individual plectrum by some accounts - is going to be a huge pain. Anyone who has toured in Switzerland will have an idea of what this means. You don’t want to fall foul of the authorities on this one, so we better all start doing some homework on it now. There is also the probability that artists will need to settle the tax due on all merchandise they sell, and fees they receive in the territory before they leave. We’re trying to get more info on both these things for you. For right or for wrong, for those artists who didn’t used to put all their merch sales through the books, that’s a potential 20-25% (we’re guestimating here) reduction on merch income, as well as the cost of the carnet. Add this to the falling strength of the pound, and it’s going to be a real challenge to tour."

BTW, the gov.uk website cites other situations where carnets will be needed:
www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily
"If you’re taking goods to another country temporarily for business reasons and you think you’ll be over the duty free limit, you can usually get an ATA Carnet to avoid paying duty. This includes things like:

samples to show at trade fairs or sales meetings
publicity materials
recorded film and audio
equipment you need for work like laptops, cameras or sound equipment
goods for educational, scientific or cultural purposes
personal effects and sports goods"

Anyone who has toured in Switzerland will have an idea of what this means.

The blogger then goes on to say;

^"As music lovers, we’ve all also benefited hugely by being able to see so many brilliant EU acts here in the UK, with events such as the fantastic monthly Nordic Showcase Ja Ja Ja Music at the Lexington bringing over the best of Nordic talent. In my other life at Karousel Music, we’ve had some stunning acts from all over the EU, from Ireland to Iceland, Estonia to Greece - including some ace Nordic acts too." [Norweigan acts listed as well].

It's a faff touring Switzerland - and yet he talks about seeing stunning acts from all over the EU - including Iceland and Norway!!

For right or for wrong, for those artists who didn’t used to put all their merch sales through the books, that’s a potential 20-25% (we’re guestimating here) reduction on merch income, as well as the cost of the carnet.

The blog was written in 2016 - 'guestimating' may not be accurate at all.

I see that an Early Day Motion for a Musicians' passport was tabled on 19th December;

edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/53466/musicians-passport

It may not be accurate, Clavinova. It may be totally wrong. Maybe it won't be 20-25%. Maybe it will be 5% or 15% or 19% or 30% or 35%. Are you saying it is inexact to state that there will be losses on sales of merchandise, because the author of the blog was unable to predict them 100% accurately in 2016?

What's happened since 2016 to make the suggestion that there will be such losses inexact?

And, yes, artists travel from Norway and Switzerland to the UK and vice versa. They go through the faff, presumably because they think they need to in order to gain access to those markets.
Does that mean it's desirable for it to be an equal faff for UK artists to travel to all 27 other countries closest to the UK?
Where is the improvement if there's more faff than before?

How many Conservative MPs sponsored that motion, Clavinova? Zero.
How many support it? Two.

How do you rate its chances, given the Conservatives' HoC majority?

Clav you know very well that there will be additional costs and it will be more difficult. How much exactly is like arguing over the size of the iceberg in Titanic. It's a bad thing. Just how bad isn't the point.

Are you saying it is inexact to state that there will be losses on sales of merchandise

Impossible to say - the exchange rate has made UK merchandise more attractive to buy - UK exporters have benefited. And ticket sales/wages for gigs would be paid in Euros - not so bad either.The current lobbying for a musicians' passport doesn't specify merchandise;

This Musicians’ Passport must:
Last a minimum of two years.
Be free or cheap.
Cover all EU member states.
Get rid of the need for carnets and other permits.
Cover road crew, technicians and other staff necessary for musicians to do their job.

www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Home/News/2019/Oct/New-Brexit-Deal-Does-Nothing-for-Musicians-says-MU

For right or for wrong, for those artists who didn’t used to put all their merch sales through the books

Tax avoidance in other words...

If tax avoidance means those involved deserve to be shafted by Brexit, I can't think why so many who are clearly not paying their UK taxes are in favour of leaving the EU.

Actually, I can.