The DUP - what do they actually want?

[FlyingFlamingo]

I’m in Wales and I’d be interested to hear from someone from NI who may be able to answer (or may not ).

What is the DUP’s ideal scenario? I know what they don’t want - they didn’t like the backstop, they don’t want to remain, they want out of the CU and SM, they don’t want a border in the Irish Sea (which I get) but what other options are there? I’m genuinely confused! Would they be happy (secretly or openly) with a hard border in Ireland?

Thank you to anyone able to explain?

i've been surprised in recent weeks to discover that almost everyone I know, both religious (which I expected) and non religious is vehemently pro life in all circumstances
Yes I was also surprised by all the pro lifers I can't say I'm surprised in a good way
I never discuss abortion with my pals in the north.
I can't believe so many in NI are close minded. Though by the celebration on TV lots were happy with the change for womens future.
DP from Belfast didn't know why I was surprised he said it has always been backwards on many issues in both areas.

I'm even seeing life long nationalist voters saying that since the DUP are the voice of pro life, that's who they'll vote for next time, as its more important to them than Irish identity
I really don't think so no Republican would Vote DUP if their life depended on it.

Isabella can I ask how did the loyalist feel about the border between NI and the rest of Ireland. Were they ok with that? Would they accept the Custom union UK wide and how do they feel about the DUP refusing to back it?

I really don't think so no Republican would Vote DUP if their life depended on it.

Well, I don't know if they'd actually follow up on their words and do it in reality, but there are certainly a few (albeit a small number) that I've seen spouting off on social media claiming they'd vote DUP. There was even a woman on the BBC news last week saying the same thing. Presumably it's to try to frighten SF into thinking they'll be losing votes if they don't change their stance?

They must be extremely opposed to the abortion.
After the campaign in the republic hearing peoples heart breaking stories travelling to Liverpool or Manchester for abnormal and unwanted pregnancies, showed many here it is not about pro life but real woman's lives and decision.

Having said that, on the Stephen Nolan show this week one of their voters came on to rant about how nationalists take money with the Queen's head on it and don't complain

I heard that in the 1970s, I thought, "Australians don't think they are British but they have the Queen's head on their money"

Little stars - like the ones round Mary's head in pictures of the Immaculate Conception LOL - wrong feast

• They must be extremely opposed to the abortion. After the campaign in the republic hearing peoples heart breaking stories travelling to Liverpool or Manchester for abnormal and unwanted pregnancies, showed many here it is not about pro life but real woman's lives and decision *

In my experience, a lot of people I know and have spoken to in NI would be in general agreement that the abortion laws needed to change to take into account medical/social issues etc.

A lot of people still believe strongly that life starts at conception, although there are more of the younger generation talking in terms of when life is viable for the baby outside the womb. There are, of course, many that believe that it is the mothers choice what happens the "foetus".

The reason so many i have been talking to are against the current legislation change is that it is much more "liberal" than the rest of uk or ireland .... abortions available to anyone for any reason up to 28 weeks (12 weeks in Republic of Ireland) and can be performed anywhere (rest of uk abortions only performed in approved centres).

The DUP and Unionist parties are generally closely linked to church and "traditional" conservative values.
Sinn Fein backed abortion reform in ROI and at the time their leaders were photographed with signs saying "NI next". But the Northern SF'ers seem to be a bit more conservative and have remained very quiet about the current changes.
SDLP have abortion as a matter of conscious for individual representations.
Alliance Party have supports the current abortion changes.

The reason so many i have been talking to are against the current legislation change is that it is much more "liberal" than the rest of uk or ireland .... abortions available to anyone for any reason up to 28 weeks (12 weeks in Republic of Ireland)
I can completely understand that.
28 weeks excluding medical reasons is horrendous.

As to what the DUP want...
There is a backdrop that there is much disagreement among the NI parties over what is required to get Stormount Assembly back .... and that would be a totally seperate post .... DUP want to over look previous transgressions over RHI, Bluesky etc. While Sinn Fein want to look at previous transgressions plus additions such as Irish Language Act.... but there is no impedus to resolve while the DUP are in a confidence and supply arrangement with the government (so the government are not neutral honest brokers to push for resolution).

Brexit has been an additional divide in NI politics that had crippled and attempt at progress. The DUP actively campaigned for leave (i dont understand why they took adverts in National uk papers ... unless of course they were getting paid to do it - that would be no surprise and par for the course!!) but they come from a background of not trusting the ROI and of course ROI is heavily embedded and proudly takes its place in EU.

The DUP see themselves as strong and loyal UKers and would hark back to a time (like the plantation of Ulster) where UK was "great" and ruled the world.... and envisage Brexit will help deliver this. This was reinforced by pre-referendum talk that a deal with EU would be "simple" (as EU needs UK more than UK needs EU), and that post- Brexit would open access to many more world markets.

However DUP were happy to say they cared less about cross border trade ... whether that was to show bravado that they are more UKers than Irish and were not too worried about how everyday life would be impacted in the mainly Nationalist population that tend to live in the border areas ... or on the misunderstanding that post Brexit would not need custom checks on all UK borders (and EU borders) and all trading arrangements with the EU after Brexit would be no different from before.

I think the DUP are now boxed in, because they got what they wanted (Brexit) but did not have the foresight of how it could impact their voters or the general population of NI. Mainly I think this is because the DUP and UK government would not be making all the arrangements for themselves... those arrangements needing to be negotiated and agreed with all EU states.

Unfortunatly the DUP hasnt grasped that the best way to secure NI in UK is to reach out to nationalist / republican community to build a shared trustworthy local government. The more they push back and stay in the old political divides then the numbers game will catch up on them sooner rather than later. ( I would say exactly the same about Sinn Feins aspirations for a United Ireland).

Emerald we were in Belfast the Saturday of the pro life march. There was an estimated 20,000 there. It was mostly RCs there and groups from the ROI. the Protestant one was held the night before up at Stormont. We caught one of the speeches where it was said SF had lost a lot of the votes of the people there and they actually gave thanks to the DUP for opposing the abortion bill. Obviously it is a personal choice when it comes to voting.

We caught one of the speeches where it was said SF had lost a lot of the votes of the people there and they actually gave thanks to the DUP for opposing the abortion bill. Obviously it is a personal choice when it comes to voting
This was at the night march yes, The Protestant event, I assume it was a unionist speaker.
Maybe it is true, I'd be truly surprised, then again legalising abortion in NI got a strong reaction from both sides.

Emerald I think the lady who gave this speech on the Saturday was Bernadette McCaffery from Tiny Life. The march on the Saturday was huge. It brought the city centre to a standstill.

Bernadette Smyth

@BangersNmashNgravy
I didn't hear much about it, like most news these days it is overshadowed by Brexit.

Isabella can I ask how did the loyalist feel about the border between NI and the rest of Ireland. Were they ok with that?

I think people were fairly happy with things as they were. But, and it's a big but, I'm in the north of N Ireland so the people around me, the ones I know best, aren't crossing the border regularly and a good number of them have never crossed the border at all, and never intend to.

And they're not the sort of people who run businesses that would have cross border trade, so again it's not on their radar. Where I live is closer to Scotland than to the border, so people here see Scotland as the nearest neighbour, not the rest of Ireland. So, if its a choice between a land border in Ireland, or a sea border between here and Scotland, loyalists in this area would, without question, choose the land border, even with all the negative consequences.

People fear that a border for goods between here and GB will eventually become a border for people and that fills them with fear, and anger.

Who should the unionists be angry with though? Is there really anyone else to blame except the DUP who led them to vote leave in the first place?

Bernadette Smyth is a fucking head-the-ball.

Pro-life Sinn Fein members have broken away and formed Aontu (sp?). I think anti-Choice Sinn Fein voters would rather vote them than DUP.

Who should the unionists be angry with though? Is there really anyone else to blame except the DUP who led them to vote leave in the first place?

That would be my logic too, but I don't think that's how they see it. They see it that the Conservative party promised that they were on side but then threw them under the bus when it suited.

What baffles me is why they couldn't have seen that coming...

28 weeks excluding medical reasons is horrendous

I agree, not sure why it's so liberal but ultimately it's not up to me to tell another woman what she can and can't do with her body. Some women only find out that they are pregnant when they give birth, so I guess it is entirely possible that you could find out very late. It's horrible to think of a viable baby being terminated though - better to have the baby live, and leave it in a SCBU for adoption. But not my choice.

People fear that a border for goods between here and GB will eventually become a border for people and that fills them with fear, and anger

But people are covered by the CTA which also covers the IOM and Channel Islands so that's not going to happen. The CI have never been in the EU customs union. But of course the best option would be for the whole of the UK to stay in the CU and SM and all of this problem goes away.

My understanding is that all that has happened so far is that abortion has been decriminalised, so currently pending prosecutions have been dropped and no further prosecutions will happen. A woman wanting an abortion will still have to travel to England, but this will now be paid for by the NHS, and she will be able to access aftercare when she comes home.

No abortions will be carried out in NI until March 2020 or so, and by then there'll have been a consultation to decide on limits etc. 28 weeks has been bandied about, but I think that's in cases of fatal foetal abnormality.

The posts going round on social media saying that we'll have the most liberal abortion laws in Europe are unfounded, as far as I know.

Quite @isabellerossignol . The Naivety is breathtaking. And no doubt when we go to the polls the party faithful will still vote for them. Depressing times.

Can I ask a naive English question please?

When talking about the two sides of the divide are the terms Loyalist/Unionist and Nationalist/Republican interchangeable?

I understand (or assume?) that it's not acceptable to use Catholic/Protestant as a sort of shorthand to mean the same thing, unless referring to actual religious differences, but am I making an English fool of myself if I use 'Loyalist' instead of 'Unionist' or 'Nationalist' instead of Republican?

Genuine question, and I hope the question itself isn't offensive in some way I can't imagine.

I'm English born with an Irish mum. For what my opinion is worth, I would differentiate between Loyalist and Unionist I would also differentiate between nationalist and republican in the context of NI.
My late mum would align herself with the nationalist community. I have family who are unionists. None are/were extremists.

We tend to use Loyalist and Republican for people who are involved in paramilitary organisations. Unionist and nationalist for your bog standard person with those views. There's no name for the growing group of people who are neither.

I would consider Loyalist and Republican to be on the more extreme ends of the respective divide eg more likely to condone violence to achieve their aims.