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Brexit

Westminstenders: Promises, promises

962 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2019 23:26

Today polling showed that there was a majority in Scotland who support Independence. The 'Boris Bounce' really isn't universal. And this is a firm sign all is not well.

There is talk tonight that Johnson is planning to stay on as PM even if he loses a vote of no confidence in order to force No Deal through and prevent a government of national unity. Instead he would call a 'people v politicians' general election to be held shortly after we'd left the EU.

Johnson's willingness to defy parliament should not be discounted and should be taken seriously. Its highly likely in one way or another. No deal is technically illegal, but its also the default. This does not seem to be fully recognised by remainers. But this is a man who lied and continued to lie. And there is every sign that he would be willing to cause some sort of constitutional crisis. Especially if he really is like Trump. This is what authoritarians do - defy convention and rip up the rule book - because the powers that are suppose to hold them to account are too weak to hold them to account. Something that Johnson has already proved time and again. He has no respect for others.

All the signs are Johnson is in fully into campaigning for a GE already. He's touring the country and ignoring Europe. He's offering money for the NHS - its open to debate whether this is new money - the optics on this are all down to what you want to believe. Those who want Johnson will believe the promise; those who don't won't.

The penny hasn't fully dropped in parliament. There is talk of a vote of no confidence being called by Labour 'at the earliest opportunity' in September. The reality is its too little too late and is unlikely to work to have the desired effect and inside will play right into Johnson's plan. The failure of the Opposition to spot what he was likely to do, has been the story of the last 3 years, where Remainers have been reactionary and unable to anticipate what would happen next. Their lack of imagination and inability to look beyond their own rhetoric has been their undoing and may cost us all in the long run.

Meanwhile in Brussels, the EU unlike our Parliament have recognised the inevitability of no deal and if Johnson wants no deal there is no way to stop it. And that he has no inclination whatsoever to negotiate.

The expectation is still that the EU will have the backstop and the Brexit Bill of £39 billion as the requirement for the opening of trade talks if we no deal.

Which leaves up shit creek.

At the same time the new trade minister Liz Truss is full on libertarian and talking to the US with this in mind.

That would mean a bonfire of rights and standards which will horrify many. That means goodbye to workers rights, food standards and data protection.

The tech giants have the ears of Washington so British ideas of a tax on them are being seen as a block on a US trade deal.

It comes as the UK has joined a US coalition to protect ships in the Gulf - something we were originally given a snub against, and led to Jeremy Hunt saying we would join a European led force. Its not clear what, who or how the US uturn has come about...

Meanwhile our summer holidays are all getting more expensive... and this is just the start of it.

This is real. This isn't a bluff.

OP posts:
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tobee · 06/08/2019 11:56

Actually, what is civil disobedience? Not paying our council tax? Putting the recycling in the general dustbin? Parking the car not neatly in a parking space? I can't do it if I don't know what it is! 😐

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DGRossetti · 06/08/2019 11:58

I've stopped emailing my Labour MP. They know my feelings. They have responded personally in great detail previously. I'm not going to waste their time anymore when the channel could more usefully be used by people who are in much more immediate desperation - people fighting benefits rulings, facing eviction, and trying to secure access to services.

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DGRossetti · 06/08/2019 12:00

Actually, what is civil disobedience?

It's something that if you started discussing it here, would lead to your name going on a list somewhere, and MN being accused of "aiding terrorists".

Remember, a criminal is only what a government says they are.

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DGRossetti · 06/08/2019 12:03

For various reasons, I have copies of this:

www.lawg.org/declassified-army-and-cia-manuals/

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tobee · 06/08/2019 12:20

DG ShockShockShock

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ZazieTheCat · 06/08/2019 13:08

I’m really starting to think that Scotland will swing quickly for Independence if No Deal happens. I thought it was a bit of a pipe dream but:

  1. People are openly talking about it again round here. It was a bit of a no go for a while after the rancour of IndyRef1.
  2. This is in a Leave area in Scotland.
  3. My neighbour, who is 70, a lifelong Tory and outspoken Thatcherite (something of a rare breed in Scotland), said at the weekend that she has never been able to stand the SNP, but if the UK No Deals she will vote SNP and for Independence in a referendum, as isolation is a bad idea and she has grandchildren to think about.
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Hazardtired · 06/08/2019 13:16

Can't cut and paste - Jon worth - he's rubbishing the claim no deal will just happen if there's a VoNC and an election is set after the exit date.

mobile.twitter.com/jonworth/status/1158478533926248448

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QueenOfThorns · 06/08/2019 13:41

If Boj crashes us out and then wins an election immediately afterwards, thereby getting the Tories another 5 years in power, how might Scottish independence come about? As I understand it, it would need to be done completely aboveboard, to stop countries like Spain vetoing Scotland joining the EU. But why would the Tories ever agree? I need an argument to convince DH - he sees this as a complete fantasy and doesn’t want to consider a move to Scotland on the chance that they manage to leave the UK. I told him that Nicola has invited us, but it’s apparently not enough Sad

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Mistigri · 06/08/2019 13:45

If Boj crashes us out and then wins an election immediately afterwards, thereby getting the Tories another 5 years in power, how might Scottish independence come about?

The idea that the aftermath of a no-deal Brexit will include a GE is for the birds.

The U.K. is nowhere near ready (much of the required legislation has not yet been passed) and both central government and local government will have their hands full with more pressing priorities.

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LouiseCollins28 · 06/08/2019 13:52

You've gotta love Polly! Grin Time for a Government of National Unity, says Polly. To be led (surprise surprise! Shock) by a Blair era Minister!!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/05/government-national-unity-no-deal-margaret-beckett-referendum

Grin

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DGRossetti · 06/08/2019 13:58

If Boj crashes us out and then wins an election immediately afterwards, thereby getting the Tories another 5 years in power, how might Scottish independence come about? As I understand it, it would need to be done completely aboveboard, to stop countries like Spain vetoing Scotland joining the EU. But why would the Tories ever agree?

As I understand it, there is some debate over whether Westminsters permission is needed for Scotland to become independent. The Union of the United Kingdom has always been assumed.

A related question would be what would happen were the Scottish parliament to legislated for a referendum which effectively declared independence ? Would England send troops ?

There are all sorts of questions about self determination that have never really been sorted all over the world. As the recent (i.e. yesterday, if anyone was watching) news over Indias decision regarding Kashmir.

I believe Spain are quite relaxed about Scottish independence in relation to their situation with the Basque regions citing (correctly) apples and oranges.

My Godfathers mother (a Basque lawyer) was expelled from Spain under Franco in the 1930s.

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Peregrina · 06/08/2019 14:31

Margaret Beckett was the caretaker Labour leader before Blair and IMO did a good job, so it was a pity she didn't stand for Leader.

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howabout · 06/08/2019 14:36

I know Louise. I was raging with her last night but as evidenced by this thread she actually does the job of pleasing her readership admirably. Smile Doesn't make the thinking any less deluded though. Grin

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Hazardtired · 06/08/2019 14:52

Three cheers for Scottish courts

A group of politicians has started a legal action aimed at preventing Boris Johnson shutting down parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit.

The group of 24 parliamentarians include Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, SNP MP Joanna Cherry and independent MP Heidi Allen.

They have lodged legal papers at the Court of Session in Edinburgh.

Their petition is being considered by a judge who will decide whether to allow the case to proceed.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49251511

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LouiseCollins28 · 06/08/2019 14:52

She certainly does that Grin, knows her audience well. Her writing generates masses of clicks for the Guardian too, no doubt. Her columns are absolute gold.

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woman19 · 06/08/2019 14:57

I love JoannaCherry Hazard Great news. She and Sturgeon are a credit to us women and Scotland. Smile

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tobee · 06/08/2019 15:05

I don't think it's very likely that Margeret Beckett would be unity leader but I'm not sure why she's any worse than any other unity leader.

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howabout · 06/08/2019 15:08

The Scottish Ashcroft polling does indeed look suspect. It appears to have disproportionately picked up people who voted in the EU Ref. Their sample implies an 80% turnout but the actual was 67%. In contrast the sampling based on Indyref1 looks about right.

My gut feeling is that this is the main driver of the reported shift towards Yes due to Brexit.

(Happy to be corrected if I have misinterpreted)

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Peregrina · 06/08/2019 15:09

Ideally I think we need a newer generation of Leader - not people who had key positions 25 years ago.

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tobee · 06/08/2019 15:10

Peregrina Margaret Beckett stood against Blair and Prescott for leader. I remember (o think on the hustings) she made some self disparaging remark about not winning a beauty contest. Standing against Bambi Blair you see.

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DGRossetti · 06/08/2019 15:12

Doesn't MB hark back to the John Smith era of Labour ?

(Leaves a gap for us to all pause and imagine What Might Have Been).

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tobee · 06/08/2019 15:12

Ideally we do Peregrina. But some were calling for Ken Clarke the other day. These people do at least have experience. Someone similar to Oliver Letwin? (Can't believe I wrote that) But no one is an ideal candidate and I don't think it's going to happen.

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woman19 · 06/08/2019 15:14

MP nominated JC for leadership nevertheless she is a fine speaker and political heavyweight.

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woman19 · 06/08/2019 15:15

Margaret Becket, that should read, nominated JC for leadership.

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tobee · 06/08/2019 15:15

Apparently, Margaret Beckett is 3 years younger than Ken Clarke. But I'm sure it goes against her for being, you know, a woman in Westminster circles.

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