Leavers aghast at getting arch Leaver as PM....

[Miljah]

Anyone else got Leaver 'friends', family or work colleagues who are stunned and horrified at getting Bojo The Clown as PM?

I want to slap them.

Instead, I cannot help myself, but I say things along the lines of 'Well, I guess it's a good thing getting a hard Brexit PM, at least now you know you're getting Brexit, come what may...' to which they say 'It didn't say anything about a no deal Brexit at the referendum'...

Well, my voting slip didn't say anything at all about what Leave would look like, too, which is why I didn't project what sort of Leave I, personally imagined; which is one reason why I voted Remain. Apart from all the other good reasons for staying on the inside of a hugely successful trading block.

My DB is a classic, flippy-floppy Brexiter.

Voted Leave. And, as above, told me what his version of Leave would look like. We'd have this, but not that, and so forth. Then, at the GE designed to seal TM's mandate, not only voted Labour but joined the Labour Party . Then, at the EP elections, voted LD- and is horrified about BJ.

FFS, the analytical ability of tarmac.

What did Leavers expect?

[DadDadDad]

Nor is it good for the country to pursue a form of Brexit that many won't support, especially when there is a possibility that the country might want to change its mind on the whole question of leaving.

And this is where our democracy kicks in: we have elected representatives whose very job is to decide between these competing pressures (and even decide which promises to break - something that's inevitable in an unpredictable world). I think another referendum is the way to reach a conclusion, but it is up to MPs to determine the best way forward.

[Mistigri]

comments like that are why leave voters mostly CBA to engage on these threads. You shame yourself.

Can you expand on this? You don't have a personal monopoly over the definition of democracy.

[DadDadDad]

(I was replying to IWanna )

[SinisterBumFacedCat]

I’m not a Leaver, but if I was I wouldn’t be sure about Boris as he couldn’t make up his mind if he was leave or remain at first, I’d have rather someone who actually believed in it like Gove.

However as a Remainer I think it’s going to be a shambles, hopefully it will all go so hilariously tits up that the country will collectively come to its senses soon. I don’t know, that’s me being optimistic!

[IWannaSeeHowItEnds]

As I understand it, democracy means that a political party makes us an offer and if we choose to accept it and put them in government their job is to do what they agreed. Not tell us we voted wrong and they know better and will do what suits them regardless of election pledges etc.

[IWannaSeeHowItEnds]

If a government can just decide to ignore what the majority have expressly told them to do, it renders any commitments from any politician to be utterly meaninglessness.

[Mistigri]

If a government can just decide to ignore what the majority have expressly told them to do, it renders any commitments from any politician to be utterly meaninglessness.

Governments routinely ignore manifesto promises if it suits them.

And if the government had intended the referendum to be binding, it could have legislated for this (hint: it actively chose not to).

Plus, we are now on our third post-referendum government. There's a fair argument that any mandate that bound the Cameron government has been exhausted. May did not get a mandate for her Brexit vision in the 2017 election, and Blojob arguably has no mandate at all.

[EmeraldIsle2016]

To Misti

Government legislation was the 500+ MPs voting to invoke article 50.

[Mistigri]

Government legislation was the 500+ MPs voting to invoke article 50.

Sure. And legislators can legislate again. They didn't stop in 2016.

[IWannaSeeHowItEnds]

I think a manifesto pledge should be legally binding and perhaps that would stop politicians from making promises they have no intention of keeping. But that's kind of my point - we are already disillusioned with politicians (of all parties). Rightly or wrongly the Conservative party asked the question and committed to respecting the answer. That shouldn't need to be tied down legally in order for the public to trust what the govt told us.
TM did win an election, even though it was by the skin of her teeth, where she also committed to leave the EU.
Record numbers of voters turned out for the referendum. To go back on that now will just render any other election completely meaningless. We will continue to have a reduction in voters and will be governed by parties who have no meaningful mandate from the public.

[Socksontheradiator]

@EmeraldIsle2016, yes, I know it hasn't happened yet. I simply meant that I imagine the people who voted to leave in an orderly, organised fashion could well be appalled at all the no deal rhetoric spouted by Johnson.
I too am hopeful that a reasonable solution re the Irish border can be found.

[Mistigri]

I think a manifesto pledge should be legally binding

How can that be, when a majority of the electorate did not vote for it? The Tories did not get an overall majority in 2017. Their manifesto was voted on, and the electorate did not vote for it.

[Parker231]

I don’t for one minute think we are going to crash out of the EU. The EU aren’t going to change the WA and UK won’t vote for what is on the table. There will be a vote of no confidence before 31 October with a GE process started. The EU will then be happy to give another extension and eventually Brexit will not happen.

[IWannaSeeHowItEnds]

I don't really understand what you mean. It's a no brainer that a government wins an election based on certain pledges and ought to be legally obliged to keep those pledges. Otherwise it's obtaining their position through deception.
I think there are good arguments for reforming the way our voting system works though, in order to make it more representative.

[Sorority]

I voted Leave and I'm happy that Boris is PM. Hope that he calls an election, gets a decent majority, and finally gets Brexit dealt with, at least the first stage of it.
The prevarication needs to stop.

[Parker231]

@Sorority and others - it’s not going to happen. The GFA has to be protected, the EU won’t change the WA, no PM (even one as stupid as BJ) is going to risk the collapse of the economy, banking and financial services industry depleted, collapse of the housing market, tens of 000’s of jobs lost and huge difficulties in the supply chain for both industries and food distribution (I’m sure you’d still like fresh food?). No PM will be electable if they force through a no deal Brexit.

[BoronationStreet]

Yes! I work with a chap that is an ardent Leaver but equally hates Johnson. He wanted Dominic Raab for PM.

[MrPan]

Sorority - the size of a majority has no effect on negitiation with the EU, or anyone else.

You like many other brexiters, seem to think the world depends on our politics. It doesn't.

Leaving the EU will be a harsh economics lesson in how small a country we are and how easy it will be for other larger nations to gobble us up.

[Mistigri]

It's a no brainer that a government wins an election based on certain pledges and ought to be legally obliged to keep those pledges.

You might think it is a "no brainier" (though I'd be careful with that term) but you have not described what you think should happen when no party gets a majority. Which is what happened in 2017.

[Danetobe]

Iwannasee - I suggest you vote based on past performance of political partys as well as party manifestos in future elections. Of course manifestos can't be binding, events change every day. A government bound by a manifesto put forward years ago would be useless.

[IWannaSeeHowItEnds]

Of course I vote based on past performance, but a party can change depending upon its leader - the Blair Labour party is not the same as the Corbyn one. We can only judge him on what he says at this point. With that in mind, I still think binding manifestos would reduce the reckless pledges made by politicians who have no intention of honouring them (think Nick Clegg and his betrayal of the students). It's meant to be their core beliefs, aims and objectives and if these are so easily given up how can we judge who best to vote for?
Wrt the election of 2017, the way our system works is that TM retained her position so had to do what her party agreed. As much as the country didn't really want her, they also didn't want any of the alternatives enough to vote her out.
People voting in that election weren't only voting about the way forward wrt Brexit. I know I went into that booth thinking that yes, Brexit was important but do was the NHS etc. I had to decide who I trusted more to do the right thing over all and sometimes for the electorate we end up prioritising one thing over another.

[DadDadDad]

I think it's logically impossible to make manifesto promises legally binding on the party that wins a majority in parliament, because parliament makes the law and the government could simply remove the legal bind.

Practically, manifesto promises are political rather than contractual: if a manifesto said "we will reduce class sizes" and in order to avoid breaking the law, the government did something ridiculous such as say Y1-Y3 attend school in the morning and Y4-Y6 attend in the afternoon (so they can spread the children over more teachers), that would hardly be delivering good education. Equally, if class sizes rose 1% but pupil attainment improved because they'd funded more classroom assistants, the electorate might judge that they've delivered politically in increasing teacher / pupil ratios. I wouldn't want a court to determine these things.

[Coppersulphate]

Another one here who is delighted to have Boris as PM. He will get us out of the EU.

[MockerstheFeManist]

We are a parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. You cannot pass a law to make parliament do something because

a) only parliament can pass laws, and

b) parliament can at any time pass a new law negating the old one.

A manifesto pledge is a promise, not a contractual obligation. Don't like how they failed to keep their promises, vote them out next time. Don't like any of the candidates, stand yourself.

[IWannaSeeHowItEnds]

That would be deliberately misleading the public though. I'd certainly remember that and vote accordingly in future.
A party shouldn't win an election on a promise to reduce class sizes and then not do it. It's obtaining their position through deception. Anybody else who did that at work would be sacked. I consider that experienced politicians know what is achievable and what isn't and ought to tailor their promises accordingly.