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Brexit

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Can anyone tell me why the DUP are so hellbent on Brexit....

224 replies

Oakenbeach · 26/06/2019 19:48

.... even if that means we crash out in 31 October? It seems to make no sense for a party whose overriding top priority and raison d’etre is the remain in the UK... Don’t they see this that a no-deal Brexit is the biggest threat to the union for NI in a century? It seems totally insane, far more so even than the mainland British no-dealers! What am I missing?

OP posts:
Thump · 06/07/2019 14:52

You can't airbrush history.

They seem to have effectively done so in Britain!

Thump · 06/07/2019 14:56

anyone who lays down preconditions or refuses to be part of forward discussions is part of the problem.

I'm presuming that's aimed at my good self?
Who you really should be aiming it at is the DUP. They are the people who nobody can work with. And for the umpteenth time - they're not fucking Irish (nor do they want to be called such a thing), so please don't blame it on Irish/IRA/Nationalists as is usual in these discussions.

Sakura7 · 06/07/2019 14:57

Thump You are entitled to your opinion on a United Ireland, but you don't get to claim it's the view of the Irish people as a whole. The evidence points to the contrary.

And no, I don't believe we are all that different to the majority of ordinary people in NI. The hardline nutjobs are a minority, most people just want to live their lives. As a Dubliner, I don't see an Irish person in Derry as any more different to me than an Irish person in Cork.

It's not just an economic issue, it's an emotive one.

Thump · 06/07/2019 15:00

My feelings on the DUP and unionists/loyalists (is there a difference?) is that if they're so fucking fond of the fucking mainland why don't they fuck off over there and leave Ireland alone ta fuck!!
That ain't going to happen though so there they are - a fucking thorn in everyone's' side. British, Irish and Northern Irish.
They're a fucking pain in the hole, but they're not going to go away so we have to try to work around them as it's literally impossible to work with them. Negotiation or compromise are swear words to those people.

So no - I'm not part of the problem, but I can clearly identify who and what the problem is.

Thump · 06/07/2019 15:03

I don't see an Irish person in Derry as any more different to me than an Irish person in Cork.

That's where we differ then.

1tisILeClerc · 06/07/2019 15:11

I have not 'blamed' anybody and have attempted to be as neutral as possible. The history has happened and obviously cannot be undone but as I said ALL sides need to sit around a table and work out where NI wants to go in future.

{I'm presuming that's aimed at my good self?}
I am aiming at anyone who is not prepared to find a resolution.

Thump · 06/07/2019 15:13

The solution to what?

Brexit? NI? a United Ireland? Long-term peace?

1tisILeClerc · 06/07/2019 15:24

Long-term peace? Yes.
And a United Ireland if that is what the majority want.
It is not a solution to Brexit at all.

Thump · 06/07/2019 15:25

For the third time - eliminating the DUP from power.

1tisILeClerc · 06/07/2019 15:30

{For the third time - eliminating the DUP from power.}

Everyone has the right to exist.
Everyone has the right to vote and change things through the ballot box.
NO ONE has the right to intimidate maim or kill others.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 06/07/2019 15:35

I am aiming at anyone who is not prepared to find a resolution.

There already is a resolution. One that has worked for 21 years, not without significant compromise from people on both sides in NI. It shouldn't be up to them to sort out yet another problem they never caused.

I appreciate that you were trying to be neutral, but the notion that the NI people owe anybody anything is somewhat ridiculous. It is the British government who has, yet again, disrupted the status quo. It is they who ought to find a solution. One which doesn't mean people dying in the streets hopefully.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 06/07/2019 15:37

NO ONE has the right to intimidate maim or kill others

Is that serious?

If Britain had never invaded Ireland in the first place, there wouldn't have been a war. Now the same government want to rip up a peace agreement hashed out and voted for by NI and Ireland, and expect the people of NI to be the ones to do it????

If nobody has the right to intimidate, maim or kill others, why the fuck are people so proud of the British empire and colonialism? Because that's exactly what it was.

The notion that Ireland just has to do as it's told is arrogant beyond belief. Britain wanted control, let them sort it.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 06/07/2019 15:39

To find a solution that should have read.

So much Brexit stuff smacks of "well we voted but we want everyone else to actually sort things out for us".

No. It's utter bullshit and the sooner the union is dissolved the better. I'm fed up to the back teeth of people posturing and demanding things from people who've had very little choice because they're a minority in a so called union.

One thing Brexit has done is smashed that little lie apart quite completely.

It's not a union, it never was.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 06/07/2019 15:41

I said ALL sides need to sit around a table and work out where NI wants to go in future

Would have been prudent to do that 3 years ago I'd think.

The fact is that nobody considered NI at all. Until they became an obstacle to what they wanted.

Sakura7 · 06/07/2019 15:42

InTheHeatofLisbon Fully agree

dreichhighlands · 06/07/2019 15:45

I don't see how you put in place a hard Brexit without people dying on streets of NI, people have already started dying.
I don't see how you create a soft enough border in Ireland to satisfy the GFA and appease the Brexiteers without significantly destabilizing the Scots/ RUK Union.
These are not new issues they have been here before the referendum.
I can only assume that the Brexiteers are okay with turning the clock back to pre GFA.

1tisILeClerc · 06/07/2019 15:58

{Would have been prudent to do that 3 years ago I'd think. }
I voted remain and as such didn't need to think about it very much at that time as by definition, nothing would have changed.

What I said still stands, if anyone refuses to sit down to discuss and move things forwards rather than backwards, they are part of the problem. Simply saying 'you did it first' reduces is to a playground shouting match and helps no one. To pretend that all was 'hunky dory' prior to battles with the English is also false as invading oppression and enslavement was a common pastime.

Thump · 06/07/2019 16:04

invading oppression and enslavement was a common pastime.

Yes - the Irish are renowned for their raping, pillaging and plundering.... Give me a break.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 06/07/2019 16:06

I voted remain and as such didn't need to think about it very much at that time as by definition, nothing would have changed

I voted remain too. But I well remember the idea of the GFA being torn up being talked about and dismissed as "project fear".

It was not the people of NI who caused this mess and it's not their mess to fix. It is the arrogance and hubris of Westminster that has caused this. Let them be the ones to fix it, instead of demanding that everyone else sorts out the shitstorm they created.

You need to brush up on your Irish history btw. I've been reading about the Easter Rising, the great hunger (the myth that it was a famine is a British construct, there was plenty of food it just wasn't available to Irish people) and the oppression of Ireland by the British.

The way I see it, what is to come is a direct result of the arrogance of consecutive Westminster governments who lorded it over many other countries for many years. Now they're on a shoogly peg and want support from the same people they've treated like shit for generations?

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

The British empire is dead, and soon the union will be too.

Nobody, but nobody can say there weren't warnings. They just weren't heeded.

Thump · 06/07/2019 16:09

This might help some people realise how this all started......

Gaelic Ireland (Irish: Éire Ghaelach) was the Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, that existed in Ireland from the prehistoric era until the early 17th century. Before the Norman invasion of 1169, Gaelic Ireland comprised the whole island. Thereafter, it comprised that part of the country not under foreign dominion at a given time. For most of its history, Gaelic Ireland was a "patchwork"[1] hierarchy of territories ruled by a hierarchy of kings or chiefs, who were elected through tanistry. Warfare between these territories was common. Occasionally, a powerful ruler was acknowledged as High King of Ireland. Society was made up of clans and, like the rest of Europe, was structured hierarchically according to class. Throughout this period, the economy was mainly pastoral and money was generally not used.[2] A Gaelic Irish style of dress, music, dance, sport, architecture, and art can be identified, with Irish art later merging with Anglo-Saxon styles to create Insular art.

Gaelic Ireland was initially pagan and had an oral culture. Inscription in the ogham alphabet began in the protohistoric period, perhaps as early as the 1st century. The conversion to Christianity accompanied the introduction of literature, and much of Ireland's rich pre-Christian mythology and sophisticated law code were preserved, albeit Christianized. In the Early Middle Ages, Ireland was an important centre of learning. Irish missionaries and scholars were influential in western Europe, and helped to spread Christianity to much of Britain and parts of mainland Europe.

In the 9th century, Vikings began raiding and founding settlements along Ireland's coasts and waterways, which became its first large towns. Over time, these settlers were assimilated and became the Norse-Gaels. After the Norman invasion of 1169–71, large swathes of Ireland came under the control of Norman lords, leading to centuries of conflict with the native Irish. The King of England claimed sovereignty over this territory – the Lordship of Ireland – and the island as a whole. However, the Gaelic system continued in areas outside Anglo-Norman control. The territory under English control gradually shrank to an area known as the Pale and, outside this, many Hiberno-Norman lords adopted Gaelic culture.

In 1542, Henry VIII of England declared the Lordship a Kingdom and himself King of Ireland. The English then began to conquer (or re-conquer) the island. By 1607, Ireland was fully under English control, bringing the old Gaelic political and social order to an end

1tisILeClerc · 06/07/2019 16:19

InTheHeatofLisbon
Why are you' getting' at me? My vote to remain is as good as your vote to remain and I absolutely agree that over centuries the British government have been complete shits.

It would seem that 'Thump' is not capable of understanding the idea of reconciliation and wishes to play the victim.
Leavers, and the UK government are being shits to me too by taking away my rights. I can either accept it and move on, or try and fight against them. Fortunately I am just moving on.

1tisILeClerc · 06/07/2019 16:24

{Warfare between these territories was common. }

Not quite the 'meek, butter wouldn't melt in the mouth' that is being suggested.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 06/07/2019 16:39

I never implied your vote was less valid than mine. However in your attempts to be neutral you only mentioned the IRA not the British forces or the loyalists, and telling someone who is Irish/Northern Irish (I've no idea which thump is) that they're playing the victim is staggering.

I'm neither, I'm Scottish but have spent enough time in NI and done enough research to understand what actually happened in Ireland under British rule to understand that nobody is playing anything.

Yet again the British government has caused a shitstorm which will directly impact, negatively, the Irish and Northern Irish people, in a very real, very devastating way and are now demanding someone else fix it.

It is beyond arrogant. People are going to die, all because people dismissed real concerns as bullshit because it didn't suit their agenda.

The recent car bomb outside Derry courthouse for example. If they'd meant to kill they would have. It was a warning. They're not prepared to go back to hard borders and troops patrolling the streets. Nor should they be.

Thump · 06/07/2019 17:27

{Warfare between these territories was common.} Not quite the 'meek, butter wouldn't melt in the mouth' that is being suggested.

Eh yes it is! We were the ones being invaded, not the invaders!

Thump · 06/07/2019 17:29

Excellent last post @InTheHeatofLisbon