London is no longer an English city

[Leafyhouse]

Said by John Cleese (he of Monty Python fame), recently. Link to story is here:

www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-48451384

What do other people think? I do see London's diversity as being its great strength, but maybe it's just because I live in the London bubble - and maybe the view from the rest of the country is utter horror that the capital seems to be becoming increasingly disconnected from the country. Both economically and culturally. Hence the Brexit vote - Remain in a sea of Leave.

What's the view from others?

I would certainly never say that anybody has ruined anything. London does need help though to sort out it’s housing crisis. As I said previously (possibly on another thread) London needs a great big hug at the moment.

@Howwudufeel I’m sorry but knowing one black boy who hasn’t yet experienced racism doesn’t give you an insight on how racist people can be.

Happens a lot in Leicester. A lot of white people make assumptions about the quality of an area with a lot of brown or black people in it — not realising that often it’s only the brown / black areas that have the Outstanding schools and kids going to Oxbridge. Even the grammar and private schools in Leicester appear lower on the league tables than the schools in the brown / black areas.

Charles Oh the irony. Your anecdote about one racist incident outside London makes you an expert about how racist we are? I don’t live in a bubble. I do know other people who are not white and I don’t accept your claim that it is terrible for people outside London. I still however stand by my comment that Londoners can be unpleasant towards one another despite you all bleating in about how welcoming and tolerant you are.

I disagree Londoners are rude. When driving we are very give and take. When commuting on public transport, which is pretty stressful, we are generally kind.
The most rude/ disrespectful behaviour I notice on the tube is groups of Northern men down on business, who discuss loudly how they could never be on crowded train like this every day, and what mugs we must all be.

London's multiculturalness is what makes it London. All the many ethnicities, white, black and brown, Mediterranean, Jewish etc, who've made London their home, have added to it's London-ness, culturally and socially.

What has fucked London up at the moment though, is the great disparity in wealth now (since the last financial crash), the intense social cleansing, and the property as investment by super-rich with no intention of living here, not multi-culturalism. It's becoming Victorian.
Oh yeah, I've lived here most of my 49 years, and have literally never heard a Londoner say 'the provinces.'

So Londoners are all lovely and kind and horrible Northerners are rude and unpleasant.

I really hope it's not that bad for non whites outside London because I plan to leave the first chance I get!

@howwudufeel where did I say it was one incident? I could reel off loads if you like. Like I said it’s mostly directed at the young adults and teens but I know adults too.
Living in London, I know quite a few different ethnicities. I know a few mixed couples too who’ve experienced racism outside London.

Ok Charles So people outside London are racist bigots. I am hearing you loud and clear.

@Howwudufeel I still stand by my first post of saying that I believe most people in and out of London are nice with a few idiots (and worse) here and there.
There’s just more racism outside of London. I never said everyone outside of London is racist.

I have to agree with Charles about racism outside of urban centres. I work in a London school where the majority of students are black. Our students definitely notice a difference when we take them on school trips outside London. When you accompany a coachload of 50 teenagers where perhaps 35/50 are black and another 10 from other ethnic minority backgrounds you definitely notice the difference.
It’s not people shouting racial slurs but the very obvious assumption that our students will be trouble. The brusque way that they are spoken to despite being perfectly polite. We went on a trip abroad once and ended up in the same accommodation block as an all white school group from Surrey. Their group leaders made constant compaints about our girls. Including making complaints about noise when we weren’t even there. The staff at the accommodation were as exasperated as we were with what was clearly thinly veiled racism. Apparently our girls were scary and intimidating. They were behaving no differently to any other group there and the staff at the centre and the activities said they were some of the politest they’d had. We actually got an email afterwards praising their impeccable conduct.
I looked up their school afterwards and their Ofsted and exam results were all significantly worse than ours, including the judgement about behaviour. I’m not sure what they had to feel so smug and superior about.

Charles11 you are a racist.

Ok. And how would that be then?

Sabine I went to a comp in the NW and I can tell you that we experienced the same thing in school trips. We were banned from shops and cafes all the time and when we were allowed into places we were all watched like hawks. We were majority white kids. It was worse if you had a priest with you at the time because then people assumed we were from some sort of reform school and crossed the road to avoid us.

Aside from anything else, I've enjoyed all the Londoners saying they've never referred to 'the provinces'. Maybe they haven't, but there was a thread on MN the other day where someone from London called Cambridge 'provincial'.

I don't like London because it's crowded, busy, noisy and impersonal. I've lived there and I didn't like it then, either.

John Cleese was saying two things. One was in words and probably accurate. The other was implied and is downright nasty. If he doesn't want people to start assuming he's a racist, he needs to choose his words more carefully.

Well of course there are other types of discrimination too. But the assumptions being made about our students are being made on the basis of their race. That is, by definition, racism.

Agreed Sabine and it’s absolutely disgusting.

Happens a lot in Leicester. A lot of white people make assumptions about the quality of an area with a lot of brown or black people in it — not realising that often it’s only the brown / black areas that have the Outstanding schools and kids going to Oxbridge

I’m from a town about 30 mins from Birmingham city centre, which compared to the other areas is less ethnically diverse. I’d say there is a very similar attitude here
There is a big difference in average property prices here too

@lhw92 - Yeah in Leicester the big ticket property prices are in the brown areas. I imagine it’s probably the same in Birmingham.

Wow - this thread exploded overnight! Serves me right for having a lie-in; have been reading the responses for 30 minutes. I particularly liked the quote from @Sparklyboots - The nice thing about London is the day you move in, you become a Londoner. Very true I think.

My question was more about the separation of London from the rest of the UK, which was shown by the Brexit vote particularly (hence why I posted it under the Brexit section), than John Cleese's opinions on life - if he was voicing something unsaid across society, that would be interesting (and horrifying). But I don't think so.

So my question was really - does the rest of the UK see London as an asset, or a liability? Personally, I see it as a tremendous asset - a small country with only 66m people has arguably THE most powerful city in the world - and it's certainly in the top 5, whichever way you look at it; it's something to be treasured.

It's come at a price to the rest of the UK, however - and I think the time is right for massive UK infrastructure investment elsewhere. But I think people can, and should, be very proud of London, and the way, for all its problems, it puts the UK on the world stage. And comments like 'London is no longer an English city' worry me somewhat, if they resonate.

The first time we took dd to London, about 15 years ago, she asked me "Mummy, do they speak English in London?" "Of course they do darling" I replied

After about three days I had to apologise to her and tell her that I'd been wrong .

Really? Did this really happen or are you being provocative? Seems a bit of bollocks IF meant to be believed.

Oh yes I do appreciate London being a major world city, and I live in the Peak District.

Of course IF we Brexit the standing/economic/cultural value of London will fall off pretty quickly, as the rest of the UK will.
We ARE 5/6th largest trading country in the world because we have the negotiating strength on the world stage of being EU member.
Once that goes to the pathetic Little Englander/Johnny Foreigner attitude of the white elderly GBP we all become poorer.

Fucking hell Charles. You are a right racist cunt.

@MrPan - in the event of Brexit London (Birmingham, Manchester, and Leicester to a lesser extent) will become even more important as it’s where the bulk of non-EU trade happens. A lot of Brexiteers have been fooled by unscrupulous politicians into thinking Brexit will equalize wealth across the country — actually it will make certain cities like Edinburgh / Glasgow / Cardiff that rely on EU investment both less important and less attractive.

Apologies, I got side-tracked with the house renovations and forgot to check back here!

@queenofaries I think when foreigners think of quintessentially English , they think of The English countryside. Quaint little villages.traditional pubs.

Yes, that's exactly what my mother thought, and what she missed whilst not in England!

@PigeonofDoom (love that name btw ) I agree, when I lived in London in the 80s, it was a diverse place. Diversity to me means a wide range of race, culture, beliefs, customs. I suspect London was always so, history's not my strong suit but given the amount of invasions this land has seen and trade with other nations...

@floraloctopus Somebody who was born in England is English. As the nationality on our passports is British and people who become citizens are British then it's possible to legally become British but not English (or Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish).

I'm born in London therefore that would make me English, but I do not identify with that because I was taken back to Australia at a few months old and raised there, until my early 20s when I returned. I was very much an Aussie when I arrived.

BUT (and this is where I find things confusing) you say people who become citizens become British but not English (or Scottish, etc). In any other country this would not be true? So why here? Is it because we are the United Kingdom (4 nations contained under one roof)? If we were not, and England was a standalone country then gaining citizenship would make one English, surely?